Radium Instruments - Your input wanted.

[JBoyle]

In 1994, the USAF became concerned about instruments in warbirds loaned to and on display, at parks, VFW halls, etc. across the country. The planes in question belonged to AMARC (Davis Monthan) and since I worked for AMARC's parent command, Air Force Material Command out of Wright-Patterson, I was given the task to come up with a PR plan.
A team from AMARC was going around the country, open up the old planes, and remove instruments...and any loose abestos. The environmental guys admitted there wasn't a real problem, unless some hobo was living in the abestos lined tail section and licking the instrument faces. I figured the sight of guys in protective suits with air masks opening up the F-84F in front of the Boyceville, Wisconsin city hall would likely attract attention. So I prepared a stock hand-out press release that outlined the program and gave our phone number if there were any questions. Also I made a list of Q&As that the AMARC mechanics could refer to. And just to see if they stayed awake during my presentation, I borrowed a camcorder and did mock interviews like a local TV station would do. That got their attention rather quickly.

They hit the road...and I never heard anything back except from an idiot lieutenat colonel at Eglin, Florida who paniced when he saw them.

[O.P.]

Hi Mike!

It's a shame your thinking about getting completely rid of them. If they're going away from your house, to a secure place, you can always send them one at a time to the refurb company. I think you'd be leading the pack with that idea. In my mind, those instruments are worth a heck of a lot more refurbed, sans radium, than they are now. Thats the way it's going anyway.

I know I've been doom and gloom on this subject, but, eventually, a supply of "Clean", vintage, instruments is going to be needed for restorations and flying aircraft. It's only a matter of time before our helper buddies in the gubmint decide that all possesion of these items is super bad and chunk them into a mountain in Nevada. I highly encourage all holders of these instruments to get them refurbed, and to collect all they can, and get those refurbed also. Understanding the potential dangers of the unrestored items, of course.

Hi Chris!
The amount of raditiated(?)...radiation isn't much, unless, like haroldmulder said, you put 250 of em in a wall locker, its gonna light up like a christmas tree. A counter brought within 10 feet of the locker is going to spazz. I personally would not want a decades old, radium dialed instrument anywhere near my daily life. The one thing besides the radium no one has mentioned, is that these decades old instruments, also have decades old gaskets and seals, if the instrument has them at all. Sealed face or not, I still have apprehensions about them.

Hi Chris B!

I haven't thought about recoveries. Then again, probably no one has. In light of this conversation, I would..
1. Remove the instruments on site.
2. Bag them up seperately and store and ship them separately, if not disposing of them there.
3. Throughly clean the areas adjacent to where they were.

The reason for this isn't neccesarily because of contamination, although thats good enough. The main reason is, I wouldn't want my find stopped in the port of Oakland because some customs dweeb thinks I'm a post 911 terrorist importing an atomic bomb, just because he learned how to use a counter two days before my plane showed up.

[airnutz]

Mike,..If I was in you situation, I would make-up some individual display
plexiglass boxes to each artifact..which would be securely stored inside
its' airtight container. If I had an instrument with a cracked face..I'd run
a bead of silicone along the fracture..let it set..remove the excess with
a razor blade, and then seal it in the plexy container. That may..barring
any further Nuke updates..satisfy the requirements of safety. You may
take additional precautions and display the Plexy collection in a locked
display case.

If your tired of having the possibility of "new batch" of kids..you might try
sleeping in your chair..with several "display boxes", piled in your lap!

[B29Gunner]

I'm surprised no one else has brought this up, but radium paint can be found on A LOT of other WWII A/C parts, not just limited to gauges. That is to include gunsights (K-10, K-11, K-13 etc), instrument panels, switches, etc. I have a B-25 bombardier's panel that glows like a %$#% X-mas tree! I would have never thought all the "paint" on this panel was radium, until I happened to look at it in the dark...I couldn't believe what I was seeing! Needless to say, it's in the garage now. If you have any doubts, just turn off the lights!

Here is an interesting article I think some would find helpful...

>>Hi List:

I apologize for the slight diversion from topic, and hope that Mr.
Skylee will forgive me since it relates to safety.
I posted a message about getting an original MB speedometer, minus the
glass and bezel. A couple of well-meaning listers promptly sent
warnings to me regarding the danger of handling the speedo, since it may
have originally had a radium-based paint applied to the numbers. I
received these messages AFTER I had spent some time with a paper towel
cleaning the face and the retouching some small scratches in the black.


The warnings sent me into somewhat of a panic. After a largely
sleepless night, spent either pacing or searching the web for info on
radiation poisoning, I called a "radiation health" physicist at the
Washington State Health Department as soon as they opened this morning. It might be appropriate to point out that the Hanford Nuclear
Reservation is in Washington, so I'm confident these guys know their
stuff.


The physicist I spoke to indicated the risk is reltively minimal. Many
people know the story of the watch dial painters who died of radiation
poisoning in the 1920's due to occupational exposure (over several
years) to radium. Seems these women had the habit of putting the
brushes between their lips to get a good point on them. The WSHD
physicist pointed out that what most people don't know is that these
women ingested so much paint that if the paint had lead or arsenic in it
in place of the radium, they would likely have died much sooner. He
indicated that brief exposure to the dried radium based paint is
probably not any more dangerous than exposure to any other kind of
paint, and that paint in general is pretty toxic stuff, so reasonable
precautions are warranted. Don't sand radium based paint or otherwise
abrade it (creating dust), and don't mess with it at all if it's flaking
off. OCCUPATIONAL exposure to this stuff, if one were to specialize in
rebuilding these types of instruments, might also be a concern.


He indicated that ingestion or inhalation are the primary risks, and
that I might have a concern if I LICKED the speedo face clean. He
offered to test it if I was still curious, and said they would accept it
for display in their little office "museum" if I decided I didn't want
it. I may take him up on the offer to test it, but he said that he
wouldn't be at all concerned about reassembling it and putting it in my
jeep. He also indicated that once the speedo was sealed back up, there
was virtually no long term risk.


Needless to say, I was VERY relieved. Each one of us has to decide what
risks are acceptable, and there are certainly a myriad of risks
associated with vehicle restoration. Prudent precautions can minimize
the risks. I hope to avoid a long thread on this topic, and I apologize
again for the length of this posting. I am NOT an expert in this
subject, and each one of you should draw your own conclusions. I am
tired and don't want to think about jeeps any more for a while...<<

[JDK]

Hi Chris,

I'm not qualified to comment about actual risk, I'm a journalist, not an engineer, though I've asked several interested people engineers and scientists who have used radioactive materials. The jury's out, but they all advocated sensible cautions.

I want to help, so that's why I posted what happened, not what I thought about it!

I think the legislation in the UK and Canada is overcautious.

OP's points about value and requirements is an excellent point. Corner the market!

[DaveM2]

Dr. Mark Timken ( White 1 owner) wrote me a long mail about the subject a few years back, it is in his field in a medical sense. IIRC he said the whole thing was overblown and you would have to sit in a closed cockpit for days for any problems to occur, as long as the instruments retained their proper seals.

Dave

[Mike Schneider]

airnutz, I like your idea but the issue now is the piece of mind of my wife, 2 year old in the house, one on the way, it's a moot point.

O.P. I'm sure refurb would be costly to say the least.

Rest assured guys I'm not going to dump them in the trash, I will baggy and seal each one then store them in some 40mm ammo cans, they will be stored with other aviation pieces waiting for possible restoration someday.

Thanks for the ideas, feedback, and information.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled dreaming about China Lake


Mike

[Jeffrey]

I used to work with industrial radiation and I know that as far as cumulative dosage is concerned here in australia radiation workers are only allowed double the standard background radiation dosage per year. any more than that and you get to take a holiday.

I do know that radium gives off alpha, beta and gamma radiations through the different stepsit's decay so it gives off stuff that'll be stopped by a decent strength piece of paper, stuff that'll be stopped by a decent thin piece of metal about 1/16th inch thick and stuff that'll go straight through steel and takes about 3 feet of concrete to stop for sure.

the thing is though that radium paint has such small amounts of this stuff that unless you lick it ( as suggested ) or inhale it ( as suggested ) then you'd be getting about the same amount as I have got from my screem while checking the figures and typing this in about a week of sitting in the same room with about 15 gauges in the display cabinet across the room unless they are a reverse pattern gauge ( entire face radium painted and needle shows as black ) and are broken opn and relaesing radon gas.

now for the cute thing... marble gives off radon gas which is worse for you than the radiation given off by radium except that it too gives off radon gas in small quantities.

what are public buildings made of frequently?

now you know why I do NOT go into the basement of public buildings made with marble.

I can hardly wait till the law makers realise that they are sitting inside bigger health risks than they are legislating against in this instance

[HELLDIVERS]

TREE HUGGERS GONE WILD!!IF YOUR AFRAID OF THEM SEND THEM TO ME ILL FIND THEM A SAFE AND HAPPY HOME,IF NOT SEND THEM TO PIONEER INST THEY WILL MAKE THEM LIKE NEW THANKS MIKE

[mlenoch]

Risk is relative:
The town of Kitty Hawk was almost evacuated when the Wright Brothers brought in 5 gallons of gasoline for their experiements.

[Ollie]

O.P., I don't mind as I said that because I think the risk is quite low.

As someone said, there are a lot of perfectly fine old pilots who spend countless of hours inside cockpits with those instruments.

What about watches? They are using tritium to make the hands glow, no?

[O.P.]

Hi Ollie! Thanks dude. I agree.

Before anyone thinks I'm some kind O tree hugger, I'll sum up everything Ive said.

1. The radiation emitted by these things is negligible.
2. The main danger with them is ingesting radium.
3. Getting an ingested dose of radium is probably not going to do much, or anything at all to a grown man.

4. And 4, is the only reason I keep on harping on this subject. This stuff is very dangerous to, unborn children, and small children. If there are Women who are, or who have the possibility of being pregnant, or Children under the age of 16 around, don't have these things near them. Again, I'm not talking about the amount of emitted radiation, I'm talking about the risk of ingesting radium. It takes hardly anything to completely screw up a forming body. Radium is the kinda crap that sticks inside you for a very long time. If you're all growed up, no big deal, If you're not, you're probably screwed.

Radium is one the things that lymph node cancer, pancreatic cancer, birth defects and miscarrages are made of. I don't even know what a pancreas does, but I don't want to be the one to tell a 9 year old kid how to try to live without one.

Store them safely, get them restored.

[airnutz]

Mike, Your concern for your young-uns is understood..as well as laudable.
It is unfortunate that your action on this issue may involve storing the
instruments away from view. Even in a locked case in the garage etc.
could be risky concerning the changing personalities and mischiefs of
maturing kiddies. Thinking of the crap I used to pull...well your better off
to play-it-safe.

Do you have a local museum where you could display them in a locked
case placed on Temporary Loan?

[mlenoch]

I did try to donate old instruments to a nearby large aviation museum (for a tax credit letter. They declined because of the radium. They were prohibited by a law from accepting such. (They did say that if they found such instruments on their doorstep, they would not dispose of them....alas, with no letter).

[JDK]

If you're all growed up

Any growd ups here? please raise yr hand.

Thought so.