Sat Feb 12, 2005 8:47 am
Mornin' All,
I have a question that involves a comment from Ms. Coble's article, "The Badin Bomber", concerning the North American B-25/PBJ series of aircraft:
"The bomber's designers modified several versions of the plane for different uses and specific needs. Starting with the B-25-NA, subsequent versions were the B-25 A, B, C, D, F-10, G, H, and J. Each design incorporated improvements over the preceding one. For instance, many felt the bomber lacked sufficient defensive capabilities, so North American made significant armament changes in the B-25 H. The first model utilized one forward fixed .30 caliber gun in the nose, two .30 caliber waist guns and one .50 caliber fixed gun in the rear. All positions were manned rather than fired by remote control. Later models added another .30 caliber gun in the nose and a twin ADF "football" turret in the top aft fuselage. As some believed this new turret eliminated the necessity of the tail and waist guns, the B version had smaller waist gunner's windows, and usually no guns were used at all."
Could someone more familiar with the type explain what kind of weapon the "twin ADF football turret" was of which Ms. Coble writes? I had always believed an ADF football was a navigational piece of equipment, rather than a piece of defensive armament.
TIA for any help.
I have a question that involves a comment from Ms. Coble's article, "The Badin Bomber", concerning the North American B-25/PBJ series of aircraft:
"The bomber's designers modified several versions of the plane for different uses and specific needs. Starting with the B-25-NA, subsequent versions were the B-25 A, B, C, D, F-10, G, H, and J. Each design incorporated improvements over the preceding one. For instance, many felt the bomber lacked sufficient defensive capabilities, so North American made significant armament changes in the B-25 H. The first model utilized one forward fixed .30 caliber gun in the nose, two .30 caliber waist guns and one .50 caliber fixed gun in the rear. All positions were manned rather than fired by remote control. Later models added another .30 caliber gun in the nose and a twin ADF "football" turret in the top aft fuselage. As some believed this new turret eliminated the necessity of the tail and waist guns, the B version had smaller waist gunner's windows, and usually no guns were used at all."
Could someone more familiar with the type explain what kind of weapon the "twin ADF football turret" was of which Ms. Coble writes? I had always believed an ADF football was a navigational piece of equipment, rather than a piece of defensive armament.
TIA for any help.
Last edited by Dan K on Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sat Feb 12, 2005 12:49 pm
We've suspected what kind of person we're dealing with all along, kind of a Hillary Clinton/ Nancy Pelosi liberal type. What she says confirms it..
Now we've got two in Congress (scary enough), and one in the NHS.
Now we've got two in Congress (scary enough), and one in the NHS.
Sat Feb 12, 2005 2:34 pm
No politics on the forum please.... I think that you will find that warbird enthusiasts cover the complete spectrum of ideological thinking, and what you have just said is both ignorant, and insulting.
Wendy clearly doesn't know much about aircraft, and I think her handling of sunken aviation heritage is a travesty, but to claim that as a liberal perspective is just plain silly.
Thank-you.
Richard
Wendy clearly doesn't know much about aircraft, and I think her handling of sunken aviation heritage is a travesty, but to claim that as a liberal perspective is just plain silly.
Thank-you.
Richard
Sat Feb 12, 2005 2:36 pm
So the B-25H added the Canon for defensive reasons? That is a new one to me. 
Sat Feb 12, 2005 2:38 pm
Well, you know Richard;
She's put herself in a political position, and subject to that kind of scrutiny.
She's put herself in a political position, and subject to that kind of scrutiny.
Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:24 pm
HI I THINK THEY SHOULD GET TIGAIR TO HELP THEM! MAYBE THEY COULD FIND A OLD SHOE OR SOMETHING, 
WHY NOT SPEND YOUR MONEY ON A EXPERIENCED COMPANY LIKE THE GUYS THAT FOUND ALL OF THE LAKE MICHIGAN STUFF?HOW ABOUT LARKINS? IF ITS OUT THERE HELL FIND IT!IF YOU REALLY WANT TO FIND IT CALL BALLARD,BUT PLEASE I DONT THINK THAT WENDY OR THE N.H.C. HAS THE EXPERIENCE TO FIND SUCH A DIFFICULT TARGET.#1IF THE A/C HIT THE WATER AT ANYTHING OVER STALL SPEED THERE IS NOT GOING TO BE MUCH LEFT THAT WOULD LOOK LIKE PART OF A B-25,PLUS THE RECOVERY OF A TRUCK LOAD OF PARTS WOULD REDUCE THE CHANCE OF ANYTHING LARGE BEING FOUND.#2 THE GOOD OLD EYE WITNESS ACCOUNTS CAN BE A TOTAL NIGHTMARE AND IN MOST CASES ARE AS FAR FETCHED AS CAN BE IMAGIANED.NEWS PAPERS OR CRASH RECORDS OF THE TIME ARE MUCH MORE RELIABLE THAN A 60 YEAR OLD MEMORY.ITS AMAIZING HOW STORIES GROW AND EVERYBODY PUTS THEIR LITTLE TWIST ON IT AS THEY PASS IT ALONG,AND MANY TIMES IT WILL BE ABOUT 99% PURE B.S.!!!#3 BELIEVE IT OR NOT IT TAKES ALOT OF TIME, MONEY,AND MOST OF ALL EXPERIENCE TO FIND A WRECK SUCH AS THIS.THE UNDER WATER IMAGES FROM SIDE SCAN ARE GETTING BETTER BUT ARE STILL HARD TO DETERMINE.IF YOURE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING THAT LOOKS LIKE A B-25 UNLESS HE GREASED HER IN,IS GOING TO BE NOTHING MORE THAN VERY JAGGED WRECKAGE.#4A SEARCH OF LOCAL PHOTOGRAPHERS/NEWS PAPER ARCHIVES CAN SOMETIME HAVE OLD PHOTOS OF THE RECOVERED REMAINS AS THAT ALWAYS DRAWS INTEREST WITH THE GENERAL PUBLIC.PHOTOS ARE AGAIN BETTER THAN 60 YEAR OLD STORIES.IS IT ME OR DOES IT SEEM THAT SOME WOULD DO MUCH BETTER FLYING THEIR DESKS AND DOING THEIR APPOINTED DUTYS THAN GOING OUT ON WILD GOOSE CHASES,OR WORSE YET DESTROYING HISTORIC ARTIFACTS BY BUNGLED RECOVERY ATTEMPTS SUCH AS THE LAKE WASHINGTON DISASTER.I THINK IT IS A SHAME THAT SOME GROUPS GO THROUGH ALL THE FUND RAISING,GET THE NEWS MEDIA AND TOWNS PEOPLE ALL EXITED AND THEN CANT DELIVER THE GOODS.YOU REALLY LOOSE ALOT OF CREDIBILITY AND PUBLIC SUPPORT.IF YOU WANT THE JOB DONE RIGHT HIRE THE BEST PROFFESIONAL FOR THE JOB THAT HAS A PROVEN TRACK RECORD,YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. 
THANKS MIKE
WHY NOT SPEND YOUR MONEY ON A EXPERIENCED COMPANY LIKE THE GUYS THAT FOUND ALL OF THE LAKE MICHIGAN STUFF?HOW ABOUT LARKINS? IF ITS OUT THERE HELL FIND IT!IF YOU REALLY WANT TO FIND IT CALL BALLARD,BUT PLEASE I DONT THINK THAT WENDY OR THE N.H.C. HAS THE EXPERIENCE TO FIND SUCH A DIFFICULT TARGET.#1IF THE A/C HIT THE WATER AT ANYTHING OVER STALL SPEED THERE IS NOT GOING TO BE MUCH LEFT THAT WOULD LOOK LIKE PART OF A B-25,PLUS THE RECOVERY OF A TRUCK LOAD OF PARTS WOULD REDUCE THE CHANCE OF ANYTHING LARGE BEING FOUND.#2 THE GOOD OLD EYE WITNESS ACCOUNTS CAN BE A TOTAL NIGHTMARE AND IN MOST CASES ARE AS FAR FETCHED AS CAN BE IMAGIANED.NEWS PAPERS OR CRASH RECORDS OF THE TIME ARE MUCH MORE RELIABLE THAN A 60 YEAR OLD MEMORY.ITS AMAIZING HOW STORIES GROW AND EVERYBODY PUTS THEIR LITTLE TWIST ON IT AS THEY PASS IT ALONG,AND MANY TIMES IT WILL BE ABOUT 99% PURE B.S.!!!#3 BELIEVE IT OR NOT IT TAKES ALOT OF TIME, MONEY,AND MOST OF ALL EXPERIENCE TO FIND A WRECK SUCH AS THIS.THE UNDER WATER IMAGES FROM SIDE SCAN ARE GETTING BETTER BUT ARE STILL HARD TO DETERMINE.IF YOURE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING THAT LOOKS LIKE A B-25 UNLESS HE GREASED HER IN,IS GOING TO BE NOTHING MORE THAN VERY JAGGED WRECKAGE.#4A SEARCH OF LOCAL PHOTOGRAPHERS/NEWS PAPER ARCHIVES CAN SOMETIME HAVE OLD PHOTOS OF THE RECOVERED REMAINS AS THAT ALWAYS DRAWS INTEREST WITH THE GENERAL PUBLIC.PHOTOS ARE AGAIN BETTER THAN 60 YEAR OLD STORIES.IS IT ME OR DOES IT SEEM THAT SOME WOULD DO MUCH BETTER FLYING THEIR DESKS AND DOING THEIR APPOINTED DUTYS THAN GOING OUT ON WILD GOOSE CHASES,OR WORSE YET DESTROYING HISTORIC ARTIFACTS BY BUNGLED RECOVERY ATTEMPTS SUCH AS THE LAKE WASHINGTON DISASTER.I THINK IT IS A SHAME THAT SOME GROUPS GO THROUGH ALL THE FUND RAISING,GET THE NEWS MEDIA AND TOWNS PEOPLE ALL EXITED AND THEN CANT DELIVER THE GOODS.YOU REALLY LOOSE ALOT OF CREDIBILITY AND PUBLIC SUPPORT.IF YOU WANT THE JOB DONE RIGHT HIRE THE BEST PROFFESIONAL FOR THE JOB THAT HAS A PROVEN TRACK RECORD,YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. THANKS MIKE
Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:43 pm
Hi Mike:
Well said! A good point is that with NHS working on it, it may just as well be the Keystone Cops. Like I said before let the NHS and Tigre waste their own time, and let the people truely interested in rebuilding one be successful..
Chris
Well said! A good point is that with NHS working on it, it may just as well be the Keystone Cops. Like I said before let the NHS and Tigre waste their own time, and let the people truely interested in rebuilding one be successful..
Chris
Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:27 pm
Rob:
You will not censor anybody elses post, even by deleting your own. I am the only one who will do so If I deem it necessary. You need to calm down and ignore those who annoy you. My warnings on this subject are over.
Chris:
While it is not a rule, politics are generally not discussed on the forum as it tends to lead to flame wars, something I try to quash.
You will not censor anybody elses post, even by deleting your own. I am the only one who will do so If I deem it necessary. You need to calm down and ignore those who annoy you. My warnings on this subject are over.
Chris:
While it is not a rule, politics are generally not discussed on the forum as it tends to lead to flame wars, something I try to quash.
Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:43 pm
to me the reasoning behind keeping politics and religion from being discussed here is very obvious. those two things have been the cause of more and bloodier wars than anything else ever devised and as such since everyone has their own opinions and they usually vary from everyone else, even those who follow the same religion or political party, biting into either one is pure poison for any sort of reasoned discussion.
I can't remember who said it but I seem to remember a quote that war is politics by force in case you think I might be wrong on the politics part of the two causing wars.
so please, I know the NHC are idiots and nutcases and refuse to listen to reason and logic and even physical and chemical laws but let's not go into politics of the appointment as it's done and now the trick is to arrange for the reversal of the decisions and appointments.
I am hopeless at remembering who said what but I like thinking of the comment that united we stand and divided we fall. so lets put aside the political arguments in here and all work towards the greater gfood of the warbirds and their history.
I can't remember who said it but I seem to remember a quote that war is politics by force in case you think I might be wrong on the politics part of the two causing wars.
so please, I know the NHC are idiots and nutcases and refuse to listen to reason and logic and even physical and chemical laws but let's not go into politics of the appointment as it's done and now the trick is to arrange for the reversal of the decisions and appointments.
I am hopeless at remembering who said what but I like thinking of the comment that united we stand and divided we fall. so lets put aside the political arguments in here and all work towards the greater gfood of the warbirds and their history.
?????????????
Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:47 am
Chris,
Do you understand what "enought is enought" means?
Do you understand what "enought is enought" means?
Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:32 am
And Before any of you start hey wait a minute Rob you are well know for your outrages claims and attacks on the NHC and the US Navy in general. True I have been very hard on them but any time I came out against them I can back up my statements with the facts either their own BS or from NHPA 106 US Code 470.
Yes we all know they are wrong, and we can discuss that as well.