Warbird Information Exchange

To All Concerned:

The B-2 flybys are training flights. Part of the training is to be over a certain target at a certain time. What difference does it make if the target is a NFL stadium in Denver, or a gopher hole in Wyoming? Its the same difference. Same thing with the timing, does it make a difference if the airplane is over the gopher hole at 19:10:15Z or at the end of the National Anthem?

Do you complain when the Air Force or the Navy builds a new bowling alley on the base?

Do you complain or voice your concerns when the Navy sends an assault carrier to Haiti for humanitarian reasons?

The money is going to be spent, might as well get a two fer! A training mission and a public relations fly by.

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If God had wanted man to fly behind a flat motor, Pratt Whitney would've built one.

Thanks for pointing out this dirty little secret, I had no idea.

Right on!

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I don't think anyone in this forum is complaining.
We all like warbirds, and we wouldn't be here if we didn't.
It does not make a difference if it is a stadium or a gopher hole.

I still think it was a valid question.

Hellcat is right. We pay the bill.

We pay the bill no matter what. We pay it if we see the B-2 or we don't.

That is not the problem.
The problem is:
Most people think it is a waste of tax dollars because they were unaware that these are training missions.
I have a few friends as well who don't like warbirds and don't like football.
They see my photos and they say... what the H***? I am paying for that???

They understand about funerals and so forth... but football?

If the USAF were to promote that it was a 2-fer... it would go a long way.
It would be a win for me because I would know that there would be a flyover with more than 15 hours notice.

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I've flown some in the C-130. In some respects, you all are right. First, the squadron is expected to execute 100% of its allocated flying hours each fiscal year. (I don't manage my personal finances that way and always thought that the candidate who proposes a plan to change the gov't budgetary process to where you "spend what you need" and aren't rewarded or penalized would be a winner, but, I digress.)

Yes, they probably convert a pure training line to a flyover. Of course it depends on the type of plane, the location, fuel planning, etc. For instance a B-2 can go fly a legit 6+ hour profile with the fly-by as just one "time control" event worked in. I don't fly the F-16 but I suspect that the typical sortie is a 1.5 and the whole thing may be dedicated to the display. So yes, there is a cost incurred for diverting a jet for the time it takes for the event, but again, we have flying hours to execute - that's the reality.

That said, our local training routes do get a bit stale. When I'm asked to hit an exact TOT over an exact geographic point - that takes planning, coordination, and a fair amount of work. The airspace over a large event will no doubt be congested with news helos, blimps, tall buildings, airliners flying to downtown airports, whatever. One could argue there's more training value in flying an unfamiliar route - because that's what we do in wartime. And just because I'm doing it over a crowd doesn't change our mission into something worthless. Fact is, we fly low-level every week and make a "pass" over some drop zone in the sticks where our only audience is a farmer and some deer. Does that make it a waste of time and money too?

I don't have the numbers, but when you look at the overall DoD flying budget and cull out the time solely dedicated to fly-bys, I bet it is smaller than a drop in the bucket. As long as they stay responsibly allocated and because I know first-hand that there is something to learn from every mission, then I have no problem with it - I want to see my taxes spent wisely too.

Ken

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"Take care of the little things and the big things will take care of themselves."

I saw we fly all we can while we can still afford it; before the politicians piss everything away

If we're gonna burn money, let's have it coming out the back of military jet engines, not lining politician's pockets or failed exec's parachutes!

Wade

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Now you are getting into a national security issue. The USAF cannot advertise its missions in advance.

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If God had wanted man to fly behind a flat motor, Pratt Whitney would've built one.

Actually, there is a TFR in effect from before to a point in time after the event where the airspace is considered sterile.

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If God had wanted man to fly behind a flat motor, Pratt Whitney would've built one.

Maybe over the stadium proper, but again, that shows how everyone focuses on the :20 the airplane is visible overhead. There is more to the whole process than the segment over the target. Thanks for the correction.

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"Take care of the little things and the big things will take care of themselves."

I think there are some huge assumptions going on in this discussion about the sentiment regarding these missions. I think just because your uncle Joe or friend thinks it is a waste of money that doesn't equate to 9 out of 10 people think they are a waste.

That could very well be the case but unless you provide some source for the statistics it really doesn't mean much. I get so tired of people just picking some arbitrary guesses out of their pocket and using them as some sort of credible statistic.

My feeling is that if public opinion was so poor about the fly-overs you wouldn't have organizers of these events including them in their schedule. If I was to guess (which is what everyone else is doing here so I may as well join in) I would say that generally sporting event attendees lean towards the pro-America, go-Armed forces type and are more likely to enjoy the flyover than say those at an Avril Levine concert.

I think the reason that you don't hear that much hype about the event is because the target audience is either at the event or watching it on TV. Depending on the event you are talking about millions of viewers. I think having the aircraft fly around town on a PR mission or driving the tanks down main street while it sounds maybe neat to all of us might be a little reminiscent of the Soviet Union.

Ryan

Must be tricky to schedule airshow attendances then.

FWIW, in my experience the right hand of PR doesn't know what the left hand (operations) is doing in most air forces, unless its so big the PR guys can't miss it. Then they'll just get the names, units, times etc. wrong as a comeback. Not that I'm a cynical journalist of course...

That said, unit level guys often do a great job, but only have unit level budgets and pull.

How hard is it to find out where and when the Blue Angels, Thunderbirds, Red Arrows etc etc... are demonstrating? Easy. Because there's a machine that does that job. More 'ad hoc' items just seem to hard to publicise well.

Just my opinion, of course.

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James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

Thank you for your explanations, Ken.

Others have all ready made the salient points here:

- Flying hours are "bought" annually and paid for in advance. Individual units have to "spend" those flight hours to get the best training for their aircrews and maintainers. The money is all ready spent, regardless of what activity takes place during those sorties. If the jets don't take off, the hours are LOST and the money is wasted.

- Flyovers aren't wasted flying time. There are many elements to planning and executing a mission that requires you to be in a certain place at a VERY precise time. For example...if I wanted to deliver a bomb at a very precise place at a very precise time. Many of those same planning and execution elements are present at an event flyover.

Skymstr02: Point taken.
You are right... You can't have it all, and I did fine with 15 hours notice.
Best Regards,

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Anyone who complains about the cost of the B-2 fly-over should read the news. The Bush administration is looking at a $700 billion bailout for the financial markets so I think there's bigger issues in the US in regards to the tax-payers money.

Might as well sit back and enjoy the show.