North American P-82 Twin Mustang N12102 & Squadron

[CAPFlyer]

Also, has not a sizeable portion of the HQ elected staff turned over since this whole thing started? I there are several programs going on to move the CAF in a new direction that have started in the last year. For example, when the P-82 trade was negotiated, there was not a Korean or Vietnam "cadre" within the CAF. There now is, and in fact, both Korea and Vietnam are (as of last year) a major feature of the AirSho flying acts. I think that we'll see the CAF continue on this path to expand its collection to include more and more aircraft from the two wars with US involvement that followed WWII as long as one thing occurs - people who are interested in acquiring, maintaining, and operating those aircraft come forward to do so. The CAF stayed WWII for so long mainly because it was less expensive to do so. The few forays into jets that the CAF attempted in the past failed because of cost and not having anyone willing to put up the funds to fly them. Now that the WWII aircraft are as expensive (and in some cases more expensive) than the later warbirds from Korean and Vietnam, there are now people more willing to put up that money for these "newer" veterans. I think there is also a realization going on that the WWII aircraft won't stay flying forever. If we don't start saving the Korean and Vietnam-era aircraft now, we won't have them to take their place as the mainstay of the flying when the WWII aircraft start needing to be parked because their airframes have reached the end of their lives.

As has been said before, I think the CAF's main goal is to maintain our military flying history. It started as WWII because that was the war which most of the equipment was being scrapped from. Now the Korean and Vietnam vets are going quickly and thus the CAF is moving to those to ensure that at least some remain around. I think it's going to end up taking more than just the CAF and I think that the CAF really needs to reach out and start making alliances with other museums and work together because there's too little money around to be competing tooth-and-nail for it instead of working together to get the most out of what's available and make sure as many planes are flying as long as possible.

[planeoldsteve]

fretting about the twin Mustang mess isn’t a showstopper in my book.

Dan

Imagine how you would feel if they sold th PBJ and didn't tell you.

Steve

[Miscue]

1) TAYLOR- First, I am not bad talking or insulting the CAF...just stating facts and truth. There are alot of people out there that never knew what happened. Undoubetly you grew up in it, just like I did. My Dad is a Life Member and I grew up in the CAF in the days of Harlingen. My very first flight in anything was in a CAF aircraft. In fact, it was in the PBY-5A. I still believe that the CAF is a fine organization and their ideals are in the right place, they just sometimes don't handle the dealings well and sometimes that cost them some of their membership. As for trading a non-flying aircraft for a rare P-38, I must state that the P-82 Squadron was making real progress to get the aircraft flying. A flying P-82 is quite a bit more rare than a flying P-38.

2) ALAN- Thank You. The P-82 Squadron was blindsided...plain and simple.

3) DAN- I was not trashing the CAF, just stating truth and facts. As I have stated above, I still believe the CAF to be a fine organization and it was a HUGE part of my life for 30 years.

4)PLANEOLDSTEVE- Thank You.

[Old Shep]

Please folks, if we could tell you more about the current P-82 situation we would.
Old Shep
CAF General Staff.

PS: I was not on the GS at the time this whole deal came about, but I can say with a considerable amount of certainty that those who think the P-82 deal was done in secret and that none of the ACTIVE sponsors were notified, consulted, whatever, are misinformed. And, in case you are interested, a sponsorship for the airplane is $10,000, and there were only TWO people in that category. As they were the only people who had anything approaching the wherewithal to fix the airplane, they were consulted, informed, etc. They were also, I believe, the leaders of the P-82 Support Group. I know several people here locally who were members of the unit: they did not hear anything from the leadership of the unit after the airplane went to California. I believe that is where the idea started that this deal was done in secret.

Remember, folks, the CAF is still a "confederate" organization. There is no central Bank of the CAF to restore the airplanes. Restoration is done at the local unit level, or by a sponsor group. If there is no money, then nothing gets restored. If a unit folds, or is unable to make satisfactory progress on an assigned airplane, it falls upon the General Staff to provide guidance and make decisions. It is never done lightly, or without considering the people involved...IMHO we give units much more latitude with the airplanes than perhaps is good. We've had units with assigned airplanes who have taken years to do things, and, despite their very best efforts, can not make things happen. What should the General Staff do then? The airplanes are the organization's biggest assets, and yet, the General Staff doesn't have as much say-so about them as most folks would think.

Food for thought, and I don't mind a reasonable discussion of all of this.

[Miscue]

OLD SHEP-I am sorry to disagree with you. The deal was done in secret. A flying Sponsorship on the P-82 used to be $10,000 but when the P-82 Squadron was formed, the flying sponsorship was lowered to $3500 until the aircraft gets flying again and would then go back to the $10,000 level. A there were a few of them. I also know for a fact, that the Squadron leader, whom was the one to arrange the military airlift from Midland to California, lived in CA and had dealing with the unit all the time.
The P-82 Squadron was making progress with the aircraft. The outer wing panels were worked on, the wiring in the outer wing panels was stripped down and new wiring put in, landing gear were located, purchased and shipped to Midland in the hopes of getting a mechanic to work on them. In my opinion, General Staff did not consider the people involved since they didn't even tell them about it. Progress was being made. It is very difficult to make rapid progress with an aircraft that is so rare and unique, but progress was being made.

[Connery]

So Scatterbrain kid II still exists?

The last information I got on Scatterbran Kid II was that after the crash all of the pieces were stored at the CAF Central Texas Wing in San Marcos. When not enough money was raised to restore it, it was returned to Midland for storage. That is according to what the P-38 webpage states from the Centex wing website:

http://www.realtime.net/centex/p38.htm

Maybe Gary might have a chance to inform us of it's current status.

[Alan Brooks]

Connery, that is a very outdated page. The P-38 has been gone from Midland for quite some time. Last info that I have, is that it was out at Rialto, Ca. in storage, but it may have been moved. Alan

[Connery]

Connery, that is a very outdated page. The P-38 has been gone from Midland for quite some time. Last info that I have, is that it was out at Rialto, Ca. in storage, but it may have been moved. Alan

That's not suprising Wonder if anyone has seen it recently?

[aerojock]

Is it still owned by the CAF? They don't list it on their web site.


Aero

[Jet Mech]

I would be courious to find out where the Scatterbrain Kid II went. I worked as a volunteer while Active Duty in the AF when the Cajun wing had the P-38 project at England AFB back in the 70's. It was nice to find out it was finally finished and then sad to hear it crashed.

Kurt

[bdk]

Wonder if anyone has seen it recently?

Yes.

[bluehawk15]

It's interesting to hear that the two P-82's at Lackland AFB were different models with different engines. Would that mean different props, or would the same prop fit on both engine types? It was suggested, after the crash, that a trade be made with the static at Lackland. One thing interesting was the original props on our plane had corrosion issues, so they were switched with the other Lackland plane, making the ones on the static not airworthy, even if we could talk the Air Force into trading them for the fiberglass ones.

Also, sorry about the old news on the CenTex Wing page. We have a new PIO who is about to launch a new, better page, which should be updated on a regular basis.

[Miscue]

The P-82 Squadron was working on a deal for props when they were blindsided and had the aircraft traded out from under them without their knowledge.......too bad.

[mustangdriver]

The only problem I have with stuff like this is that there is a double standard. You can see it in a ton of posts here. If you want to bash the NASM, NMUSAF, NMNA, or any other museum it's fine, and you can go on forever. But as soon as you mention something about the CAF, CF, or any of the several private collections out there, you get jumped on like you punched someone's mom. I have no problem with having respect for these people, but maybe we can try and do the same for the others as well.

[Obergrafeter]

I think you can disagree with the CAF , but nobody needs to trash it. God knows I don't agree with a lot they do (ask Gary) but the one thing this P-82 deal has done is unite most of the membership behind this cause. The message I got at Airsho this year is we are going to continue to fight the USAF on this to the bitter end. As a businessman I think I would cut my loses and run. But sometimes when your right your just right, and if the 300lb bully kicks your butt you just have to get up and try it again. Even if the CAF wins their appeal the costs probably won't make up for it; but I support them in this endevor. Hopefully it won't cost us so much we will lose some other assets to continue.