Warbird Information Exchange

Something like a "World Heritage site," eh? And how does the public own them?? I'm sorry, but if they're abandoned, they do no one any good, public or private, and are an environmental hazard. I'm for anyone who's not a scrapper pulling them.


Look, everybody dies someday, and like the the L-1 that is now in the USAFM, it may eventually end up serving the public good BECAUSE it was recovered and restored - which it would not have done if allowed to continue deteriorating.


And there my friends is what I really suspect all along. Folks have the attitude that if I can't have part of the cookie - you can't either - no matter how much trouble you go to to find the cookie! A good second-grader attitude...


There's a major difference here. I DO trust someone who's willing to spend $5 million on a recovery effort with the aircraft. And as for government accountability - what about the aircraft Pensacola's scrapped? What about that that Brewster that made such a stink here on WIX recently? What about all of the unrecovered aircraft rotting and polluting all around the world because they won't let someone who wants to take care of them?
Oh, and our squadron and other groups like us are accountable in several ways. First, we have to maintain our museum status. Second, since we have public events and if we make mistakes, it will be obvious (as it was a number of years ago with a major crash/collision). And third, our own pocketbooks and checking accounts demand that we be responsible guardians of the treasures we have invested in.

Ryan

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Aerial Photographer with Red Wing Aerial Photography currently based at KRBD and tailwheel CFI.
Websites: Texas Tailwheel Flight Training, DoolittleRaid.com and Lbirds.com.

The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD. - Prov. 21:31 - Train, Practice, Trust.

Actually, you make exactly one good point in your above post -- the one about having to maintain your museum status. Being a 501(c)(3) museum should be a minimum qualification for recovering a wreck from private land/water.

August

FYI - from folks who are in contact with them, it appears that NHC has had a shift of vision, is changing, and is trying to make the situation right. We ought to give them time.

Kermit Weeks - as far as we know doesn't hunt for wrecks

Doug Champlin - again - according to sources, if the whole story ever comes regarding the TBD issue, it might change some people's opinions on what actually happened and the whole issue with NHC.

Ryan

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Aerial Photographer with Red Wing Aerial Photography currently based at KRBD and tailwheel CFI.
Websites: Texas Tailwheel Flight Training, DoolittleRaid.com and Lbirds.com.

The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD. - Prov. 21:31 - Train, Practice, Trust.

But most of the aircraft we have now were recovered by private individuals and restored by private individuals who had a vision and did GOOD work. Both the government and 501(C)3 groups can and do make mistakes as well.

None of the guys in my squadron are EVER likely to get rich, famous, or otherwise as a result of our efforts. It costs money to restore and maintain the aircraft. We do that. We also promote the history of the Liaison pilots. How many museums even carry a book about them? I could count on my fingers and possibly a few toes how many books even cover the liaison story in any significant way.

If P-51s and B-17s are more popular, then I for on am ok with some being in private hands. There are plenty preserved in museums.

Ryan

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Aerial Photographer with Red Wing Aerial Photography currently based at KRBD and tailwheel CFI.
Websites: Texas Tailwheel Flight Training, DoolittleRaid.com and Lbirds.com.

The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD. - Prov. 21:31 - Train, Practice, Trust.

The idea that having money and being willing to spend it on old airplanes somehow assures that you will behave responsibility vs. historical artifacts is absurd. Every year at Reno, a bunch of guys with lots of money and no sense of heritage meet to see how many historic airplanes they can destroy.

Yes, there are private parties who do as good or better than the government at preserving, restoring and displaying aircraft. They should be allowed -- that is, given the permission, granted the privilege -- to do so. Anybody who thinks it's his right, not his privilege, to be permitted to retrieve abandoned aircraft should automatically have that privilege revoked.

August

August,

There are already steps that a private person must take in order to recover aircraft. If you recall RichH put up a item discussing this recently. In order to do a recovery of a USAF/USN/USMC aircraft you need to fill out a permit and submit it to either Maxwell AFB or NHC for final approval. If the wreck is on public land, before you can do a recovery, you have to file a environmental impact study and have a BLM archeologist do a site write up. So to a degree, there are already checks and balances in place.

Also what standards and who is going to enforce them? What about grace for organizations that fall on hard times? As for 501(C)3s go, TIGHAR is a good example of problem organizations... you and I both know that a lot of their stuff will probably never happen.

Oh, and I have similar thoughts about Reno... I would hate to see the L-5 I get to fly treated that way, but you can't totally judge recoveries on this. Many of the early and possibly even current racers there were aircraft that the government sold to private individuals, and they can do with them as they please. I don't want to live in the kind of country our WWII, Korean, and Vietnam era vets fought to prevent having world domination.

Ryan

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Aerial Photographer with Red Wing Aerial Photography currently based at KRBD and tailwheel CFI.
Websites: Texas Tailwheel Flight Training, DoolittleRaid.com and Lbirds.com.

The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD. - Prov. 21:31 - Train, Practice, Trust.

As much as I admire the static museums of the Air Force and Navy, they are completely unable to recover the majority of the wrecks that are out there, let alone find and maintain homes for existing airframes; ie the EC-121T or the Brewster Buccaneer wreckage that the Navy junked. The funding just isn't there. I would venture to say that there is considerably more motivation in the private sector than with the gov't agencies. While 501(c) museums play an important role too, they often times do not have the funding necessary.

Seems to me a similar dilemma was well publicized with dinosaur bones about a decade ago. There is a narrow window of time to recover them when they become naturally exposed. They become washed away, eroded, and scattered by animals. If it was not for the private sector that was constantly searching, many of them would not have made it to museums and history would be lost.

While bureaucrats sit around and debate the issue, zebra mussels are attacking the aluminum grain with their excrement. Yeah, the government needs to recognize the private sector and what they have done to rebuild and preserve the wreckage of so many aircraft.

So, with time running out, whoever gets there first should be allowed title of these abandoned aircraft; whether that be the gov't, 501(c's), or the private sector. Finders keepers. Long live the Pirate Wreckchasers!

Edward

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Searching for B-29A-55-BN 44-61966 photo and history!

Okay, so we agree on some things. Government has a role in helping ensure responsible behavior from recoverers. Enforcement is challenging. Some organizations that have 501(c)(3) status don't deserve it; others that choose not to be tax-exempt are probably worthy. The attitude of partnership with government, with obligations and assistance running both ways, sits fine with me. It's the anything-goes, finders-keepers mentality that I find objectionable. There's plenty of room in between the up-for-grabs frontier and totalitarianism.

August

Yay!

I personally like the private guys like Lewis who like to keep the old planes like Glacier Girl flying (can you imagine the USAFM ever doing that!) and can forgive them for things like racing Rare Bear. I also like private owners who do things for good reasons (like some of the guys who privately own L-birds at our field) and don't have a 501(c)3 as a tax shelter for their personal project. There are plenty of those out there. The problem with making laws about such things, is that you often punish the good with the evil. That I despise. There has to be a better way to do it.

Ryan

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Aerial Photographer with Red Wing Aerial Photography currently based at KRBD and tailwheel CFI.
Websites: Texas Tailwheel Flight Training, DoolittleRaid.com and Lbirds.com.

The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD. - Prov. 21:31 - Train, Practice, Trust.

Well, yes. The RAF does stuff like that, as do several other foreign air forces, so it is not a great leap for me to imagine the USAF doing it. But perhaps this is subversive socialist talk.



A better way than laws? There may be one, but I don't think it's merely the absence of laws, however imperfect and inconvenient laws may be.

August

August,

I subscribe to the theory that government was designed to punish the wicked, and praise the good. If you're going to say something is bad, and can prove so on moral grounds, then I'm ok with laws. But what I don't like is denying someone say, a driver's license for instance, because of the numerous bad or reckless ways it can be used. I'd rather issue them the license (or not have a licensing process at all) and then have much tougher laws for abuse or damage to other people's lives or property. I'd err on the side of severe punishment for bad behavior, rather than lots of hoops to get through and wimpy punishments. i'd also have stronger punishments for malicious intent vs. unintentional.
What I don't like is folks assuming that I have some evil purpose before I go out and recover something.

Ryan

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Aerial Photographer with Red Wing Aerial Photography currently based at KRBD and tailwheel CFI.
Websites: Texas Tailwheel Flight Training, DoolittleRaid.com and Lbirds.com.

The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD. - Prov. 21:31 - Train, Practice, Trust.

Let's say this. there are better ways than you suggest. Having the government taking these wrecks and giving them only to museums. ie the A.F. museum (remember these are the guys who withhold bills of sale, while selling a plane-idiotic) is stupid.

As I said before keep the bureaucrats out. They make everything they touch worse. I think the 1 in 1000 wreck that are shot by bubba with his .22 or b.b. gun at are no camparison with the air force museum getting it and selling it w/o a bill of sale.

And far better than the NHC doing a bacterial study on, with the EPA's permission after they do a radioactive test on, etc.

Main point is it's a ridiculous idea to hand things over to PHD archeologists, and the government entities they work for. Absolutely stupid..

Good grief A2C I don't know where you get the idea that I suggested that.

I said the government should screen who gets to collect wrecks and secure an enforceable commitment that they will do what we all agree are the right things, not just hope they will.

I'm sorry you don't like Ph.Ds. Some people who have them are nice guys, and many are non-"stupid."

August

Another point of total agreement!

Ryan

_________________
Aerial Photographer with Red Wing Aerial Photography currently based at KRBD and tailwheel CFI.
Websites: Texas Tailwheel Flight Training, DoolittleRaid.com and Lbirds.com.

The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD. - Prov. 21:31 - Train, Practice, Trust.

You suggested it here:




As for what you said here:


The PHD's, archeologists and other elites are the ones sitting around coming up with all the weird ideas.