Spitfire Two Seat Trainers

Alex Smart · **Posted:** Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:39 am

Hello,

Am interested in Spitfire Two Seat Trainers.

The first one known was a Mk. Vc serial number ES127 of the SAAF, this was an in the field conversion.

Several conversions to two seat a/c were made in the USSR but little is known of these. Further details welcome.

The first true Spitfire two seat trainer, type 502 was a Mk.VIII, serial number MT818 -N-32 - G-AIDN now in the USA.
There was also reported to have been a second Mk. VIII, that was G-AKBD. In "Spitfire the History of a famous fighter" by Harleyford has this a/c being sold abroad. Further details of this a/c welcome.

In "Spitfire the History" by Morgan& Shacklady the following serial numbers are given for Mk.IX Trainers.
BS147,MA848, MH415, MH432, MH434, MJ177, MJ276, MJ451, MJ518, MJ627, MJ772, MK172, MK196, MK298, MK715, MK721, ML113, ML345, ML407, ML417, PV202 and TE308.
Not mentioned in this list on page 377 is BS274 which was a Mk. Vc that was converted to a Mk.IX then to a two seat trainer. BS274 is also noted on page 206 with the remark that it was incorrectly serialised as BF274.
For those interested here is my list by Country of original Mk.IX Two Seat Trainers -

Denmark
ML345, but was this a/c a two seater ?

Egypt
ML113 - G15-92 - G-ALJM - 684

India
MA848 - G15-2 -HS534
ML417 - G15-11 - HS543 - G-BJSG
MH432 - G15-3 - HS535
MJ177 - G15-4 - HS536
MJ276 - G15-5 - HS537
MJ451 - G15-6 - HS538
MJ518 - G15-7 - HS539
MK172 - G15-8 - HS540
MK196 - G15-9 - HS541
MK298 - G15-10 - HS542

Iraq
Six ordered but then cancelled. Were these a/c to go on to Ireland ?

Ireland
MJ627 - G15-171 - 158
MJ772 - G15-172 - 159 - G-AVAV - N8R
MK721 - G15-173 - 160
ML407 - G15 -175 - 162 - G-LFIX
PV202 - G15-174 - 161 - G-TRIX
TE308 - G15-176 - 163 N308WK

Netherlands
BS147 - G15-1 - H-99 - PH-NFN
BS274 - G15- ? - H-98 (BF274)
MH415 - G15-? - H-65/H-108 - Belgium - SM40 - OO-ARD - G-AVDJ -N415MH
MH434 - G15-? - H-68/H105 to Belgium - SM41 - OO-ARA - G-ASJV
MK715 - G15-? _ H-97

Re MH415 and MH434 were they ever two seat Trainers?
What were the B Condition numbers of BS274,MH415, MH434 and MK715 ?

Other references were Spitfire 60 Fabulous years , a Fly Past Special
SAM publication The Supermarine Spitfire Part 1 Merlin Powered
AirBritain's Spitfire International.

Alex

Jeff Funk · **Posted:** Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:55 am

Pics of TE308

Lone Star Spirit of Flight Air Show - Apr 21, 2002

CAF Airsho 2003 Midland, TX

paulmcmillan · **Posted:** Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:10 am

Alex

couple of points

a)

MK715 'B-Class': N-41
BS274 'B-Class': N-42

Never had 'B Class conditions' there delivery pre-dated the start of them post war. They used the pre-war Vickers Supermarine "N numbers" listed above

b) Vickers Supermarine 'B-Class' should be stated as G-15-nnn

c) Can anyone confirm ML407 as G-15 -175 and PV202 as G-15-174. I have seen references the other way round!

d) According the the Air Britain 'Big Book' Spitfire Trainer G-AKBD was registered by Supermarine on 14th July 1947. The registration was for a Spitfire Mk VIII Type 502 (not a Mk IX Type 509) and the notes have it 'not completed' and cancelled in May 1948.. However, it has the construction number 6S/730847 listed.

Paul

DazDaMan · **Posted:** Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:16 am

MH415 and '434 were never two-seaters. I often wonder why these were listed as such in "Spitfire - The History" - perhaps they were allocated for conversion, but sold overseas before this could be started?

Of interest is that TE308 (pictured above) originally started life as a low-back MkIX (like the SAAF Museum example that was severely damaged a few years ago).

Stieglitz · **Posted:** Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:18 am

MH415 and 434 came to Belgium after their service with the RNAF and they where later put on the belgian civil register. They always stayed in their singl seat fighter configuration and certainly never got converted into two-seaters.

J.V.

John Lane · **Posted:** Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:54 am

Little known trivia! While working for Champlin Fighter Museum I spent 4 1/2 years rebuilding his TMk-9, MJ772 after a landing accident due to a broken pneumatic system. Both TE-308 and MJ722 were in the movie "Battle of Britain", both those A/C were shipped to Canada and sold to parties in the US. When the two A/C were assembled the wings were swapped by mistake, which we discovered during the restoration. Bill Greenwood was buying TE-308 from Woody & Chris Woods about this time, but had no interest in swaping them back. As I remember MJ772 had at least 4 confirmed air to air credits during the WWII. Both were converted for the Irish Air Force as dual control trainers after the war.

RMAllnutt · **Posted:** Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:41 am

There's a website devoted to the type 509 spitfires (Tr.IX) here.

http://www.historicair.com/type509spitfires/
Neil Medcalf used to run a site dedicated to Spitfire trainers, but I couldn't find it. He sometimes posts here I think.

Also... Check this site out there are some fascinating pictures (before and after) of surviving Indian Air Force Spitfires... the rest of the sites pretty cool too... never seen it before.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/Aircraft/Spitfire.html

PeterA · **Posted:** Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:08 pm

John Lane wrote:

Little known trivia! While working for Champlin Fighter Museum I spent 4 1/2 years rebuilding his TMk-9, MJ772 after a landing accident due to a broken pneumatic system. Both TE-308 and MJ722 were in the movie "Battle of Britain", both those A/C were shipped to Canada and sold to parties in the US. When the two A/C were assembled the wings were swapped by mistake, which we discovered during the restoration. Bill Greenwood was buying TE-308 from Woody & Chris Woods about this time, but had no interest in swaping them back. As I remember MJ772 had at least 4 confirmed air to air credits during the WWII. Both were converted for the Irish Air Force as dual control trainers after the war.

Well not quite.

I personally shipped TE308/163 over to Don Plumb in Windsor Ontario in July 1970. Then it was the first time the wings had been off the aircraft since it was in service with the Irish Air Corps. It flew over from Ireland for the BoB film.

MJ772/159 was retained by Willy Roberts who later sold it direct to Doug Champlin, in the US in 1974.

If the wings were interchanged it must have been done at some time in service with the Irish Air Corps. Because of the spar fixings and oversize bolts I can can see no logic for even considering this.

PeterA

PeterA · **Posted:** Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:52 pm

http://www.historicair.com/type509spitfires/

Try this.

It is worth it for the sound alone.

PeterA

John Lane · **Posted:** Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:36 pm

Peter, Your probably correct with the wings being switched while still in service with the Irish. I didn't take MJ772 apart after the accident, but I did put it back together. I used liquid nitrogen on the numbered bolts when I installed them in their individual holes. We had the carry through spars out and replaced entire the firewall. Moved the undercarriage control into the front cockpit. I made the rear roll over support detachable and made slides to go in the rear canopy track to screw the aft cover down. Except for the undercarriage control the rear cockpit is completely stock. Thanks for your side of the history.

Alex Smart · **Posted:** Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:36 am

hello to you all,

Thank you for the information .

Some of those links that you provided are new to me and were most welcome.

Have you seen the April 2005 issue of "Aeroplane" yet ?

I expect that some of you have and may have been involved in the search already.

On page 13 of this issue there is an article by Philip Jarrett with regard to an UNKNOWN Spitfire Mk. IX Trainer. It carries the markings G 15 - 75.

No not G-15-175, but G 15-75.

Could it be that N-41 or N-42 were before delivery remarked with this number ?

If not then do we have another aircraft, timed as between June '49 and November '49 and so far gone unrecorded ?

Again, for some reason I think that I have seen the photo's before in a magazine many years ago and the car in the photo's seems to ring a bell as I recall that mention of it was a link to either the place, event or the Spitfire. Any car buffs know ?
I will as time alows look up my old books.

Can it be confirmed that the Irish Spitfires marked in the range 171-176 were so marked , are there photos of them so marked or were they just 71-76?

If some Spitfires were being readied for IRAQ then is it at all possible that some of them were already being marked for transit then following cancellation and the Irish order the same aircraft were then given an extra digit to bring the numbering from 71-76 up to date to 171-176 .

Just thought I'd throw that in the melting pot .

Again thank you to all for the help. Looking forward to more replies.

Alex

paulmcmillan · **Posted:** Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:25 pm

Could it be that N-41 or N-42 were before delivery remarked with this number ?

No.. The dates make this impossible.. these 2 were delivered in 1947, the G- 'B Class' registrations did not start until 1948 and anyway G-15-175 would not have happened until 1949

BTW. There is a theory that G-15-75 might be a previously unknown painting error for G-15-175!

Neil Medcalf · **Posted:** Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:01 am

Thanks everyone for your comments- If you don't mind I'd like to add a couple myself. First I'd love to see the new photos of this mystery two seater. However the mag won't be on the shelves yet in the stores for at least another two weeks. Such is live living in the sunshine of the west coast of Canada! Second John I'd love to hear from you! Sound like you'll have a few stories that might help me out in my research! Please contact me thru my website at www.historicair.com/type509spitfires
Thanks- Neil Medcalf

DazDaMan · **Posted:** Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:28 am

Neil, if someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll scan the photo from the mag for you.

Neil Medcalf · **Posted:** Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:57 am

Thanks Daz. I'd be greatful for that... Neil

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Spitfire Two Seat Trainers

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