Pres. Bush pardons man who smuggled B-17s to Israel.

[AviaS199]

They were Czech built examples, they had the wrong motors too, but at least they were German !

Check my avatar for a photo.

[Chris Brame]

Where are these B-17s now? Are they melted down? As they were the only bombers they had... are they in a museum now?

Scrapped in '61 - one fuselage (44-83811) was briefly saved for the movie The War Lover but scrapped afterwards. Aren't the Israelis still looking for a B-17 for the IDFAF museum?

Here's a link to a photo of 44-83811 from the movie:

http://www.controltowers.co.uk/B/bovingdon_1960.htm

[PeterA]

A couple of shots from my IDFAF files.

PeterA

[Bill Walker]

Didn't Israel use C-47s' for bombers also?

I have picture somewhere of an Israeli Seabee with bomb racks. They used everything they could get their hands on.

[John Dupre]

Where are these B-17s now?
Are they melted down? As they were the only bombers they had... are they in a museum now?

Best Regards,

The B-17s, eventually there were at least 3, are long gone. One of the fuselages was apparently used for studion shots in the film The War Lover and then scrapped. One of the B-17s after being armed in Czechoslovakia bombed Cairo West airport after pretending to be an incoming airliner.

[John Dupre]

There were at least two RAF vs Israel fighter encounters. The first involved 3 RAF Spitfires being shot down and was apparently a chance encounter by Israeli Spitfires, Mk IX and RAF, Mk. XVIII meeting just after Egyptian Spits had attacked Israeli positions. The RAF was pretty free about overflying Israel whenever they wanted and there was a second one involving Spits and Tempests with one Tempest being lost. In this one apparently the Israelis deliberately attacked the RAF in order to teach them a lesson. At least one of the Israeli pilots involved in these encounters was a Canadian volunteer and another was Slick Goodlin former Bell test pilot.

There were numerous Egyptian vs. Israeli Spitfire encounters and another RAF encounter where an Israeli Mustang (they had two at the time) shot down a recon Mosquito which crashed in the Med.

[Steve Nelson]

I've got an old issue of "Airpower" that details the saga of the Israeli forts. A fascinating story. Apparently, they bought four civil-registered B-17s through a third party that had been stripped of armament and bomb racks. They were one step ahead of the Feds ferrying them out of the country..one plane was eventually impounded (I think) in Portugal or the Canary Islands. Three made it to Israel, where they were outfitted with bomb racks and some armament (but I don't think any turrets.)

Thanks for the follow-up info guys..I too had always wondered what became of them.

SN

[Mudge]

Didn't Israel use C-47s' for bombers also?

Now THAT conjures up even FUNNIER pictures in my mind.

Mudge the easily amused

[hercules130]

Gents,

I may be remembering wrong, but it seems as if I read in something that more than one of those Egyptian Pilots was a Brit mercenaries. Any credence?

[AviaS199]

Gents,

I may be remembering wrong, but it seems as if I read in something that more than one of those Egyptian Pilots was a Brit mercenaries. Any credence?

Don't think so. There were rumors of either Brits or Yanks flying for the Egyptians, but I'm pretty sure nothing was ever proven. The Egyptians were trained by the British, and as stated above, there were some unfortunate clashes between the RAF and the IAF. The "Fog of War" was pretty intense in that conflict.

My own story about the IAF:

Two years ago, as part of my "day job," I was interviewed by a woman named Nelle, a producer for National Geographic Channel. In the course of our converstation, I told her I wrote an article about the IAF in the 1948 war that was about to be published. She told me her uncle was a Jewish slave laborer who worked on a Messerschmitt assembly line during the war. He was such a good mechanic, the Nazis kept him alive, but just barely. When the war ended, his family found him in a Displaced Persons camp on Cyprus. At the time, he weighed just 65 pounds. They took him to Israel, and three years later, he was back working on the Avia/Messerschmitt - this time, for the IAF.

When the article came out, I sent a PDF to Nelle, who passed it along to her uncle, who is still alive and living in Israel. A short time later, the uncle sent a message to me through Nelle. He enjoyed the article, and said he was in a couple of the photos.

I'll keep that email until my dying day.

[Obergrafeter]

Better be careful or W might renigg on that pardon.

[262crew]

A couple of shots from my IDFAF files.

PeterA

Irony at its highest form

[SaxMan]

There was very little air-to-air combat in the 1948 war. IIRC, the Israelis only destroyed 19 Egyptian and Syrian planes in air to air combat. Modi Allon accounted for 5 of those before being killed in a crash of his Avia.

After the war, the B-17s were fitted with the upper turret and the ball turret. They were also fitted with external racks in addition to the internal bomb bays, as the distances involved in the Middle East were far shorter than those over Europe, so a heavier load could be carried.

The B-17 that is currently restored as the "Liberty Belle" was originally to be slated to go to Israel for their museum, but the deal fell through. On one of the e-mail lists I subscribe to, an Israeli who served on the Fortresses (and also was a Swordfish gunner with the Royal Navy) was one of the individuals involved.

After restoration, the airplane was going to be flown to Israel. The group was looking for 69 Squadron veterans (the squadron that the B-17s were assigned to) to fly the plane over. I'm not sure where or how the deal fell through, but the guy is pretty bitter about it.

[aerovin]

My understanding from one of the principals is the B-17 transfer to Israel was being used as a way to grease the skids for a helicopter sale that involved McDonnell-Douglas before it was taken over by Boeing. When the sale went south, so did the B-17 transfer.

As far as the FAA registry is concerned, the airplane that flies as Liberty Belle went from Tom Reilly to the Randsburg Corp. of Portland in 1999 and about the same time it was re-registered as N817BR ("BR" for Bob Reid). Reid let me know that he had purchased the airplane from Reilly to exchange it with McDonnell-Douglas for some IDAF surplus helicopters in Israel. McDonnell-Douglas would get the helicopters from Israel in exchange for the B-17, and then the helicopters would go to Reid. This was all part of a larger deal between Israel and McDonnell-Douglas for some new helicopters.

When Boeing bought McDonnell-Douglas, they took over the contract and Boeing was not happy with the exchange arrangement so it was terminated. Reid details that the airplane was then sold to Boeing as part of the contract termination and the airplane, still in Reilly's Florida shop, was subsequently sold by Boeing to Don Brooks and his Liberty Foundation. There is no record of the airplane being held by either Bob Reid or Boeing in the FAA record, but it is supposed that the Randsburg Corp. was Boeing's vehicle in the deal.

[John Dupre]

[quote="SaxMan"]There was very little air-to-air combat in the 1948 war. IIRC, the Israelis only destroyed 19 Egyptian and Syrian planes in air to air combat. Modi Allon accounted for 5 of those before being killed in a crash of his Avia. Snip quote]

Every Israeli source I have ever seen quotes Modi Alon with only 3 air to air kills and lists Israel's first 5 victory ace as Giora Rom in June 1967.