Pres. Bush pardons man who smuggled B-17s to Israel.

SaxMan · **Posted:** Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:38 pm

John Dupre wrote:

Every Israeli source I have ever seen quotes Modi Alon with only 3 air to air kills and lists Israel's first 5 victory ace as Giora Rom in June 1967.

My mistake. I had an old copy of "Born In Battle" magazine that described Alon as Israel's first air ace. I had assumed that meant 5 kills. What they probably meant was that he achieved the first air-to-air victory for the IAF.

SaxMan · **Posted:** Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:43 pm

aerovin wrote:

My understanding from one of the principals is the B-17 transfer to Israel was being used as a way to grease the skids for a helicopter sale that involved McDonnell-Douglas before it was taken over by Boeing. When the sale went south, so did the B-17 transfer.

As far as the FAA registry is concerned, the airplane that flies as Liberty Belle went from Tom Reilly to the Randsburg Corp. of Portland in 1999 and about the same time it was re-registered as N817BR ("BR" for Bob Reid). Reid let me know that he had purchased the airplane from Reilly to exchange it with McDonnell-Douglas for some IDAF surplus helicopters in Israel. McDonnell-Douglas would get the helicopters from Israel in exchange for the B-17, and then the helicopters would go to Reid. This was all part of a larger deal between Israel and McDonnell-Douglas for some new helicopters.

When Boeing bought McDonnell-Douglas, they took over the contract and Boeing was not happy with the exchange arrangement so it was terminated. Reid details that the airplane was then sold to Boeing as part of the contract termination and the airplane, still in Reilly's Florida shop, was subsequently sold by Boeing to Don Brooks and his Liberty Foundation. There is no record of the airplane being held by either Bob Reid or Boeing in the FAA record, but it is supposed that the Randsburg Corp. was Boeing's vehicle in the deal.

That corroborates the story I heard from the Israeli end of the deal. I didn't remember the specifics, but you managed to conjure up my recollection.

TimAPNY · **Posted:** Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:44 am

Very cool pictures, please keep them coming!

Tim

Towpilot · **Posted:** Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:12 pm

John Dupre wrote:

There were numerous Egyptian vs. Israeli Spitfire encounters and another RAF encounter where an Israeli Mustang (they had two at the time) shot down a recon Mosquito which crashed in the Med.

Two Mustangs?? Do you mean there were only two left still in service at this specific time? IDEAF bought 25 P-51 (if I remember correctly) from Sweden and an unknown number from Italy. Some sources says they also bought from Nicaragua (who also bought P-51 from Sweden). More than two P-51 flying today are former Israel Air Force.

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:17 pm

Towpilot wrote:

John Dupre wrote:

There were numerous Egyptian vs. Israeli Spitfire encounters and another RAF encounter where an Israeli Mustang (they had two at the time) shot down a recon Mosquito which crashed in the Med.

Two Mustangs?? Do you mean there were only two left still in service at this specific time? IDEAF bought 25 P-51 (if I remember correctly) from Sweden and an unknown number from Italy. Some sources says they also bought from Nicaragua (who also bought P-51 from Sweden). More than two P-51 flying today are former Israel Air Force.

From what I understand those were the FIRST two P-51s in the 101 Squadron. Those 25 more came later.

Ryan

SaxMan · **Posted:** Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:36 pm

RyanShort1 wrote:

From what I understand those were the FIRST two P-51s in the 101 Squadron. Those 25 more came later.

Ryan

That is correct. Only 2 P-51s arrived in time for the 1948 war. The Swedish Mustangs were acquired after the Armistice. In addition a number of Mosquitos were acquired from airfields in France. I'm not sure if these were purchased directly from the French or they were purchased surplus.

John Dupre · **Posted:** Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:14 am

RyanShort1 wrote:

Towpilot wrote:

John Dupre wrote:

There were numerous Egyptian vs. Israeli Spitfire encounters and another RAF encounter where an Israeli Mustang (they had two at the time) shot down a recon Mosquito which crashed in the Med.

Two Mustangs?? Do you mean there were only two left still in service at this specific time? IDEAF bought 25 P-51 (if I remember correctly) from Sweden and an unknown number from Italy. Some sources says they also bought from Nicaragua (who also bought P-51 from Sweden). More than two P-51 flying today are former Israel Air Force.

From what I understand those were the FIRST two P-51s in the 101 Squadron. Those 25 more came later.

Ryan

Exactly right. If the Israelis had had 25 Mustangs in 1948-49 there would never have been a 1956 or 1967 War since they could have taken all the territory they ever needed right then.

tom d. friedman · **Posted:** Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:08 pm

there was a post ww 2 movie starring actor kirk douglas that commemorated the events & details. pretty accurrate depiction too. i think for sure at the time the ad hoc israeli airforce operated with more than a mixed bag of ww 2 warhorses both allied & axis. an incredible feat!! the way the guy douglas was portrayed in the movie was accurate too. he was a jewish american expatriate who saw ww 2 service in the usaaf during ww 2.

SaxMan · **Posted:** Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:32 pm

tom d. friedman wrote:

there was a post ww 2 movie starring actor kirk douglas that commemorated the events & details. pretty accurrate depiction too. i think for sure at the time the ad hoc israeli airforce operated with more than a mixed bag of ww 2 warhorses both allied & axis. an incredible feat!! the way the guy douglas was portrayed in the movie was accurate too. he was a jewish american expatriate who saw ww 2 service in the usaaf during ww 2.

Are you referring to "Cast A Giant Shadow"? It was the story of Col. Mickey Marcus. Marcus was Army, not Air Corps. The movie was loosely "based on a true story". Some of the depictions were reasonably accurate, but a lot of the movie was simply out there in left field. "Exodus", which was a historical novel was closer to the mark, but has no mention of the Air Force.

The IAF in '48 was definitely a mixed bag of planes: Noordyn Norseman, A-20s, B-17s, Beaufighters, a Lockheed Hudson, Auster, Fairchild Argus, De Haviland Dragon Rapides, C-47s, C-46s, Spitfires, the Czech built Messershmidts and the two P-51s.

Steve Nelson · **Posted:** Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:46 pm

I never heard that the Israelis operated A-20s...any pics out there?

SN

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:17 pm

SaxMan wrote:

The IAF in '48 was definitely a mixed bag of planes: Noordyn Norseman, A-20s, B-17s, Beaufighters, a Lockheed Hudson, Auster, Fairchild Argus, De Haviland Dragon Rapides, C-47s, C-46s, Spitfires, the Czech built Messershmidts and the two P-51s.

Don't forget the V-35 fitted with bomb racks!

Ryan

tom d. friedman · **Posted:** Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:18 pm

yes saxman, that's the 1. i figured there were some embellished parts to the plot parts at some points. happy new year, in hollywood b.s. sells!!! best, tom

aerovin · **Posted:** Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:25 pm

Steve Nelson wrote:

I never heard that the Israelis operated A-20s...any pics out there?

As far as my records show, the organizers of the IADF tried to smuggle four A-20s out of the U.S. in 1948 but they were intercepted and seized in Florida. All four A-20s had come out of the RFC lot at Altus and had been owned first by Joe Zeppa and registered as N5066N through N5069N. They went through a couple of owners until purchased by one Leonard Burns of San Francisco, who it turns out was an alias and probably one of the Israeli purchasing agents. The four were seized at Miami in August 1948 and, after normal legal proceedings, were sold at a Marshal's sale on April 4, 1949. The current A-20 held by MARC was one of the four (then it was civil registered as N5066N).

ZRX61 · **Joined:** Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:16 am **Posts:** 2308

noizeedave wrote:

C-47s and B-17s were the great bomber squadron of the IDF during the War of Independance.

The word these days is "insurgency"

ZRX61 · **Joined:** Tue Jun 14, 2005 10:16 am **Posts:** 2308

Fighters Over Israel by Lon Nordeen is a good read btw

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Pres. Bush pardons man who smuggled B-17s to Israel.

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