Warbird Information Exchange

We have a situation here with the Belgian AF. They have a few Piper Cubs for glider towing and a few years ago those were overhauled. Overhauled as in new wings, fuselage frame,... BUT they kept the serial. The old fuselage frames however were sold on the civil marked and some have been restored to airworthy. Now you have one Cub serial which flies as a civil bird, while a Cub with the same serial is still in BAF service! Which one is the original?

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Magister Aviation
It's all in my book

The USS Constitution, which is billed as the oldest commissioned warship afloat in the world, has had multiple comprehensive overhauls/rebuilds since it was launched in the late 1700s. Reliable estimates say that only 10-15% of the ship actually dates to the War of 1812 or before ... none of it above the waterline.

So is it really the Constitution? Or a reproduction?

And I thought this thread was going to be about folks manufacturing new dataplates. In all lack of seriousness, wouldn't that make a new-build aircraft original?

"I was just out walking around, and found this here data plate 44-73455. Lookie there, it fits -PERFECTLY- on this brand new Mustang."

Geeeeez.............me too on the data plate thing...was hoping to find somebody new that replicates the darn things!
My .02 worth on the actual subject...if it looks like a Mustang..it's a Mustang.

It may interest a number of individuals that while the Spirit of St Louis did recieve some souviner hunter's damage, the repairs were made. What is really interesting, is that after these minor repairs were effected, and while still under the care of French authorities , the entire fuselage fabric, from forward cockpit area (about 8'"aft of the fuselage fuel tank) to tail post was removed. The aircraft was subjected to close examination and then recovered with French fabric. The original fabric pieces removed are still in the Muse d'lair (sp?). To this day, there is seen in the cockpit where the French natural colored fabric was stiched to the original silver painted( interior side), applied in San Diego.

With a number of mods undertaken in the short career of the SoSL, it is hardly the aircraft which crossed the Atlantic.

On another note: Despite the ongoing arguments about what is or isn't "original", I should like to point out the legal recognition an aircraft recieves from "officiating " bodies (IE: FAA), which may have more to do with setting value than strict adhereance to a set of muesem standards.

When a flying data plate is recognized as being the airplane it purports to be, its value rises over a possibly even more authentic,but "experimental" reproduction. It's simply a case of outside forces recognised by the marketplace.

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Charles Neely

..so if any of you need one for your Boeing B-52 just drop me a note!

This is how I have always looked at it:

A warbird made new from original plans incorperating remanufactured parts-Reproduction.

Small scale-replica

-A warbird with new, used, and barrowed parts-restored.

Simple.

the military reproduction business is booming!! i've seen frightening great fakes, of uniforms, medals, flight gear, silhouette i.d. models etc. i've been dealing in aviation antiques for 22 years, & i've seen it all & much of it is misrepresented either by accident, or an unscrupulous dealer who knows he's selling you junk. i've been burned a number of times too. you have to have a sharp eye for detail. the key to buying investment grade antiques is to have documentation & provenance of what it is. a man who's dad helped salvage the 1937 hindenburg crash, kept a few pieces of duralumin & even made the small girders as end tables. he wanted me to sell them for him for a commission, the story jived, but again no documentation or provenance that it was the real deal. i told him that people could think i went to a junk yard & got those girders. he ended up donating them, so much for the sale. i did a magazine article on trench art. amazing what people do here....... attach a bunch of shell casings, make an ash tray, etch a phoney name, new guinea 1944, put the thing outside to weather & tarnish for a while, & then drop or beat it up a little to age it more. take it to a military collector show, he talks it up, & your $$$$ is history. i had a lifetime opportunity to buy an amelia earhart autograph, it was real, but written in pencil........... autographs should only be bought written in ink. no dice their!! valuable / investment grade military collectables need documentation. that is the cardinal rule. i'm thinking of starting a military collectables purchase appraisal service. please let me know your thoughts. i won't do warbirds, but i know who does. he has collaborated with me before. we did the appraisal on the b-25 lady of the lakes b-25 a few years ago to the salvors satisfaction.but i will do any type of aviation memorabila from ww1 to korea. sadly the veterans are dying in droves. families go into dad's foot locker & have no clue as what to do withe stuff, or what it's worth.

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

The cub airframe has a Part number, in essence that part was replaced with a new part. A piper paperwork is worth $$$$$$$, the rest is easy!!

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Long Live the N3N-3 "The Last US Military Bi-Plane" 1940-1959
Badmouthing Stearmans on WIX since 2005

Yes, but-currently there are more BELL 47's registered and flying than were ever built. Parts get swapped around, S/N's transfer from one busted up airframe to several others and you have a scenario not unlike the CIA's story with HELIO COURIERS. The spooks got ahold of prints one at a time 'we've had an accident and need to make these wing ribs' or whatever part and after a while HELIO wasn't getting any orders because the CIA was producing airframes with bogus, duplicate, or no S/N's.

A famous story in motor sports is a D type Jaguar that was wrecked decades ago, the car was cut up and sold, everyone who got a piece of that car and built up a car around their parts now claims theirs is the original and only correct one-I think there are currently 4 or 5 racing D Jags with the same VIN #.

Tom you may be onto a brilliant new career there!

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Don't make me go get my flying monkeys-

There was a fantastic old historic race car here. The chassis was completely made out of old tailshafts. The current owner thought it looked too rough and had a new one made for it. The old chassis was thrown out.
As far as Im concerned that car has been destroyed.
There is a place for data plate planes as there are original unmolested examples. As long as everyone knows what they have its all fine.
In terms of historic race cars you cannot get a Certificate of description and therefore a log book until you can prove it provenance and its integrity.

This argument goes on in the military gun world all the time as well.

One guy pops up and says "I've got this original M-1 Garand that my pappy brought back form the war" Then someone comes up with a photo of some Private building field grade Garands out of a stack of parts eight feet high...ALL ORIGINAL!

I have a "original" 1903 Springfield...my Dad bought it from the NRA in 1946...it came right out of Army stocks..it is a 1918 receiver with a 1944 barrel...original? hmmm..

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Zane Adams
There I was at 20,000 ft, upside down and out of ammunition.
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who cares, Zane? Does it HUNT, is the real question

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"I knew the jig was up when I saw the P-51D-20-NA Mustang blue-nosed bastards from Bodney, and by the way the blue was more of a royal blue than an indigo and the inner landing gear interiors were NOT green, over Berlin."

Nope, Zane what you have is an authentic arsenal rebuild. If it had a 1918 barrel then you might have a shot at original !

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"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass..."
Admiral Isoruku Yamamoto

I have couple of quibbles with some of the definitions. I think that Replica is something that looks less than original. Reproduction is something built new from the same materials and processes as an original and is virtually indistinguishable from an original example. This inverts Mikesh' definitions which I know come from the antiquities world. Replicas had to made by the original builder with original tooling the classic example being something like jewelry or china ware that were brought back on a royal anniversary.

Along with race cars, sports cars and the Belgian cubs are the pair of SPADs built about 30 years ago from the remnants of one original aircraft. Two different owners claimed the same serial number. Provenance is the key, being able to prove that what you claim to have is genuine.

I think a military collectors provenance service would be a great idea.

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"I can't understand it, I cut it twice and it's still too short!" Robert F. Dupre' 1923-2010 Go With God.