Fri Apr 01, 2005 7:09 pm
I must admit, I'm not very well educated on the topic, becoming a warbird enthusiast only 5 or 6 years ago. (I've been interested in airplanes my whole life)
Just out of curiosity, who's Dr N? (sounds familiar, can't place it).
It's just that I'm compiling a list of surviving warbirds and those would help me.
Just out of curiosity, who's Dr N? (sounds familiar, can't place it).
It's just that I'm compiling a list of surviving warbirds and those would help me.
Dr. N
Fri Apr 01, 2005 7:31 pm
To paraphrase Hannibal Lechter...the Enn Atch CEEE...
Fri Apr 01, 2005 8:12 pm
Sat Apr 02, 2005 9:31 am
Ah yes, that rings a very loud and annoying bell. 
Dr. "N"
Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:17 pm
What I could never figure out is why Dr. "N" just does not seem to understand that when you are trying to achieve something such as preserve and present naval aviation history to the public you need to build support from a broad base of people. What NHC has done is nothing short of just making everyone one angry.
A while back Dr. Dudley was asking people to help him gather information about the naval boat lift from North to South Vietnam during the 1950s. He knew that there were people out there who had info that he would never get without their help. Dr. “N” and his team will never learn a great deal of important info about lost naval airplanes without help from people such those of you who visit this web site, that even includes you who has the early Navy flying boat disassembled in your late grand father’s barn.
The tone of this whole thing could have been so much different, if only NHC really cared about presenting naval aviation history (at least the branch that covers the airplanes). I doubt the archeological community can find anything respectable about the way the NHC has handled this situation.
All of you know the common person respects what you do, you can see it in their eyes when they look at your work, and I get to see it every time I pass the SBD at Midway Airport. It is one of the most wonderful feelings to see a ten year old brake his/her mother grip just so they can bask in awe under that airplane. Children seem to know that the airplane is a wonderful bird of freedom, which is beautiful for what it is.
Dr. "N" could read everything we post here, I believe he will never learn, because he does not seem to want to.
Taras
A while back Dr. Dudley was asking people to help him gather information about the naval boat lift from North to South Vietnam during the 1950s. He knew that there were people out there who had info that he would never get without their help. Dr. “N” and his team will never learn a great deal of important info about lost naval airplanes without help from people such those of you who visit this web site, that even includes you who has the early Navy flying boat disassembled in your late grand father’s barn.
The tone of this whole thing could have been so much different, if only NHC really cared about presenting naval aviation history (at least the branch that covers the airplanes). I doubt the archeological community can find anything respectable about the way the NHC has handled this situation.
All of you know the common person respects what you do, you can see it in their eyes when they look at your work, and I get to see it every time I pass the SBD at Midway Airport. It is one of the most wonderful feelings to see a ten year old brake his/her mother grip just so they can bask in awe under that airplane. Children seem to know that the airplane is a wonderful bird of freedom, which is beautiful for what it is.
Dr. "N" could read everything we post here, I believe he will never learn, because he does not seem to want to.
Taras
Corporal?
Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:21 pm
I have a question: where did that “Corporal” come from that is under my name? I am (or was) a commissioned infantry officer, ranger qualified
Corporal is not very flattering to me.
Taras
Corporal is not very flattering to me.
Taras
Re: Corporal?
Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:50 pm
Taras wrote:I have a question: where did that “Corporal” come from that is under my name? I am (or was) a commissioned infantry officer, ranger qualified
Corporal is not very flattering to me.
Taras
Hi Taras!
It's the post counter assigning a rank by the number of posts you've made. I was a Corporal in the infantry, now I'm a Group Captain, and am apparently English.
Re: Corporal?
Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:35 pm
O.P. wrote:Taras wrote:I have a question: where did that “Corporal” come from that is under my name? I am (or was) a commissioned infantry officer, ranger qualified
Corporal is not very flattering to me.
Taras
Hi Taras!
It's the post counter assigning a rank by the number of posts you've made. I was a Corporal in the infantry, now I'm a Group Captain, and am apparently English.
Scott can change your "rank" if it really bothers you. As you can see by mine he was feeling humorous one day and made me the motor pool officer. (not that I'm complaining mind you, because I'm not)
Re: Corporal?
Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:40 pm
Taras wrote:I have a question: where did that “Corporal” come from that is under my name? I am (or was) a commissioned infantry officer, ranger qualified
Corporal is not very flattering to me.
Taras
I still just a lowly little enlisted guy (E-6) in real life. I'd take great offense to being addressed by an officers rank. It would be quite embarassing as I work for a living and have full knowledge of who my parents are.
can I be First Prime as in SG-1
Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:15 pm
I spoke with the General Counsel (or is it council) for the House Armed Services Committee today. Aside from the fact that he said he handled the legislation in the FY05 Defense Authorization Bill concerning the submerged aircraft, then sort of back peddled and claimed it was a lot of lawyers. Aside from him changing his reason why the act was drafted: first it was because of the Buffalo from the swamp, then it was that they wanted to protect grave sites (he mocked me when I told him for the Lake Michigan planes were not), then it was because Congress did not want anyone messing with the airplanes. When I told him (he knew nothing about it) that in 1989 Congress changed the law to provide the funding avenue to recover lost airplanes, thereby showing him that Congress intended different in 1989, he ended the conversation at that time, with a, “we changed our minds” snap at me.
Beside that fact that I practiced my award winning win friends and influence people skills, he did not seem to enjoy my pointed criticisms of what I see as bad piece of Congressional Legislation. A side conversation that stood out in the conversation for me was that when I mentioned the EAA objections to the legislation, he seemed honestly to never have heard them. Those professional lobbyists we heard about must be doing a fine job, at something. Does anyone know what that is?
Taras
Beside that fact that I practiced my award winning win friends and influence people skills, he did not seem to enjoy my pointed criticisms of what I see as bad piece of Congressional Legislation. A side conversation that stood out in the conversation for me was that when I mentioned the EAA objections to the legislation, he seemed honestly to never have heard them. Those professional lobbyists we heard about must be doing a fine job, at something. Does anyone know what that is?
Taras
Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:17 pm
Stupid Question.........
Why would the NHC want to shut this forum down. First of all why would they care about a forum, and second why would they waste the time, government time to monitor such forum.
I was in the Air Force for 10 years, and to be honest, I just do not understand why the NHC would give two hoots about this forum.
It is a nice forum, dont get me wrong, but what danger if any is there for people trying to locate historical data on aircraft.
Now if the information is deemed classified, I can see if information was leaked, someone might have a problem. Most documentation is under the Freedom of information act, though limited sometimes.
Just a curious question and no, I am not a cat so dont go there with the reply of Curiousity Killed the Cat.
Paul Krumrei
Warbird-central.com
Why would the NHC want to shut this forum down. First of all why would they care about a forum, and second why would they waste the time, government time to monitor such forum.
I was in the Air Force for 10 years, and to be honest, I just do not understand why the NHC would give two hoots about this forum.
It is a nice forum, dont get me wrong, but what danger if any is there for people trying to locate historical data on aircraft.
Now if the information is deemed classified, I can see if information was leaked, someone might have a problem. Most documentation is under the Freedom of information act, though limited sometimes.
Just a curious question and no, I am not a cat so dont go there with the reply of Curiousity Killed the Cat.
Paul Krumrei
Warbird-central.com
Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:32 pm
First off: Hi Paul. Welcome to WIX.
Secondly: Yours isn't a stupid question.
I believe you're correct when you imply that the NHC probably doesn't care whether posters locate historical data or not.
WIX, however, includes many who are interested (and actively involved) in locating historical aircraft--for the purpose of recovery and restoration. NHC's current goal is to prevent that from happening.
Secondly: Yours isn't a stupid question.
I believe you're correct when you imply that the NHC probably doesn't care whether posters locate historical data or not.
WIX, however, includes many who are interested (and actively involved) in locating historical aircraft--for the purpose of recovery and restoration. NHC's current goal is to prevent that from happening.
Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:36 pm
Ahhhhhhh. Now I get it.
Well, my 2 cents is, that if a person was killed in the crash, leave it be, the soul of the pilot and those on board rest there.
However, the other side of me tugs in the direction of get the plane out of the water and into a Museum or other significate location, to explore and rejoice in the lives of those who flew her.
The NHC, however probably feels that since it is officially government property, it has the power to stop them from getting it.
Now try to educate me. If an aircraft is damaged/crashed, is it not "written off" the books from the government, therefor no longer an assett of the U.S. Government.
And if so, why could someone not prospect these "gold" pieces and claim it for themselves?
I am sure the laws state such claims against doing so, just trying to figure out the "game" of ever changing rules.
Paul Krumrei
www.warbird-central.com
Well, my 2 cents is, that if a person was killed in the crash, leave it be, the soul of the pilot and those on board rest there.
However, the other side of me tugs in the direction of get the plane out of the water and into a Museum or other significate location, to explore and rejoice in the lives of those who flew her.
The NHC, however probably feels that since it is officially government property, it has the power to stop them from getting it.
Now try to educate me. If an aircraft is damaged/crashed, is it not "written off" the books from the government, therefor no longer an assett of the U.S. Government.
And if so, why could someone not prospect these "gold" pieces and claim it for themselves?
I am sure the laws state such claims against doing so, just trying to figure out the "game" of ever changing rules.
Paul Krumrei
www.warbird-central.com
shutting this forum down
Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:39 pm
I would think the NHC would want to use what is written here to support their way of doing things, it would not serve them well to try to shut it down.
Just imagine twenty years from now the salt in the ocean, the Zebra Mussels in Lake Michigan, and the weather on land will have destroyed the airplanes we have been discussing. How will the NHC write the history and tell that story so they look like the heros to future generations?
Taras
Just imagine twenty years from now the salt in the ocean, the Zebra Mussels in Lake Michigan, and the weather on land will have destroyed the airplanes we have been discussing. How will the NHC write the history and tell that story so they look like the heros to future generations?
Taras
Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:48 pm
Paul, you've just hit a goldmine concerning recovery and restoration expertise on this board. People like Taras, Mike R., John Lane, and so many others would be able to answer your questions more ably than I.
In a nutshell, yes: The Navy has played "games" over the years concerning who owns what. Years ago, commercial fishermen were having expensive nets caught on sunken naval ships in the Gulf of Mexico. The Navy successfully dodged any financial responsibility to the fishermen by declaring the sunken vessels to NOT be Naval property. Their current position has taken a 180 degree turn, even to the point that current legislation empowers the Navy to claim ownership over ALL sunken military craft--not just former Navy issue.
Yes, I think you summed it up well with the term "games".
In a nutshell, yes: The Navy has played "games" over the years concerning who owns what. Years ago, commercial fishermen were having expensive nets caught on sunken naval ships in the Gulf of Mexico. The Navy successfully dodged any financial responsibility to the fishermen by declaring the sunken vessels to NOT be Naval property. Their current position has taken a 180 degree turn, even to the point that current legislation empowers the Navy to claim ownership over ALL sunken military craft--not just former Navy issue.
Yes, I think you summed it up well with the term "games".