I stand corrected....

[KarenG]

Hi All,


It has come to my attention that I was wrong when I stated that Jack Roush would be painting Dean’s Mustang to look like his other two. It is going to be painted as "U've had it" which was a P-51 flown by John England of the 357th FG, a 17½ victories ace. It will have
D-day stripes. Col. England was killed in 1954 while attempting to land his F-86. Bud Anderson was a friend of Col. England, and a friend of Jack. Roush’s. Once this plane is finished, it will be Col Anderson who will fly her, in a tribute to his friend. It is all clear now. There has never been any chance that this plane would be painted to honor Dean, not even briefly. Knowing what I do now, I don’t want her to be!

I have also learned that we WIX'ers are being watched. Apparently, I hurt Jack Roush's feelings, or angered someone close to him, because we all made Jack Roush out to be the “bad guy” in all this!


I have been told that Jack Roush has a great sense of history. I believe in some ways this is true. Old Crow is a good example of that. Unfortunately, for my Uncle, he didn’t know the right people to make his sacrifice worth remembering. It seems that in this case this is a privilege reserved only for the well connected. I would hope that Jack Roush, of all people, after nearly being killed in the exact same way that Dean was, shortly after purchasing the bits of Dean’s plane, would have at least considered an accurate paint scheme. How rewarding is it going to be to fly this “fake” when there are so many pictures of the original?

I am so very sick and tired of people trying to blame or rationalize their actions or others actions on other people. The bottom line is Jack Roush bought the bits of this plane, and decided to replicate it the way he chose. Is he within his rights to do so? ABSOLUTELY! But it doesn’t make it any easier for me having to explain this to my Dad, or to Dean's two sisters.

I take consolation in knowing I still have small pieces of the "real" 43-12252. I have a tip of her wing, I have the rudder pedal, and I have my memories.

I am not monetarily rich by any stretch of the imagination, but when it comes to good decent kind friends with a true sense of history, my family and I are very rich indeed!

I wash my hands of this “thing”. I was told, “It will always be Dean’s plane no matter what the paint scheme”…… No it won’t!

I would like to thank all the people that have tried to help me. You are all very wonderful decent guys, and my life is better for knowing all of you.

I will stop now by again stating something from my heart……..Wherever Uncle Dean is, I truly hope that he knows I did my best to try to pursuade the powers that be, to create this final tribute for him. I feel quite certain that I just made a lot of people a lot angrier at me, then they were a few days ago, but it doesn’t matter anymore, as long as I know I tried, and I was able to keep Dean’s memory alive through all of you, then I know I haven’t failed completely. So, someday soon if you see a P-51B with D-Day stripes flying somewhere, you at least will know the true sacrifice made in her original, model, so very many years ago. Thank you all!

Karen

Last edited by KarenG on Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:38 am, edited 5 times in total.

[Forgotten Field]

Karen,
Would have been good to see the plane restored accurately to its original colors of WWII but I also don't see too much wrong with the tribute to a friend on the part of Mr. Roush. It's easy to go to a cemetary once a year and play taps for the people who lay there, but harder to live with their physical absence and continued presence of friendship on a day to day basis. So if this was Mr. Roush's solution to his friend's grief, there is only one solution for you...
It sounds like you have enough to start a P51 restoration. Why don't we start one?

[Dan Johnson II]

Karen,

Keep in mind one important thing in all this. In the end, what Jack Roush has is just an airplane. What you've done is made sure that your Uncle Dean will be remembered. You've done it, by sharing his story with folks like us.

You learning the details of his story has made sure that he won't be forgotten. How can he? When I come across a photo of an MTO P51A, the first name that comes to my mind is Dean Gilmore. That's what is important. That Dean and his sacrifice isn't forgotten.

25 years ago now, I got hooked on the Spitfire XII. At first it was the airplane. But as I went digging, it became all about the people. As much as I love that particular Spitfire, I probably couldn't tell you the details on it from memory. BUT I can talk for days about the pilots and ground crews without ever having to look at anything to refresh my memory.

15 years ago, by accident I got involved in researching a B24 crew that was lost. Now the photos of the pilot and co-pilot, who were both killed, look back at me every day from behind my computer. They are a part of me now. My job is to make sure they are never forgotten. It's my responsibilty, just as you've taken on the responsibility for Dean.

So as nice as it would have been to have that 51 flying in it's wartime markings, in the end it matters little as you've done a wonderful job looking out for Dean Gilmore and his memory. You've made sure he won't be forgotten and for that you should be proud. Also understand how much it means to us that you let us in on Dean's story and allowed us to be a part of it.

And remembering Dean is what matters most. Not the airplane.

Dan

[mrhenniger]

Very well stated Dan.

I hope to one day seen this P-51, the Dean P-51, at an airshow. I will appreicate it as Karen's uncle's plane (at the very least a restored/recreated version), and he is Dean Gilmore. Now the markings are Dean's markings, but of someone else, so I will make the effort to learn about that story as well. So... two stories for the price of one. Not a bad deal when you think of it.

Mike

[Dan K]

I must concur 100% with Dan J's eloquent comments: How tickled your Uncle Dean would be today if he could somehow know that his niece and other family members would put this kind of effort into perpetuating his memory!

I am actually a bit jealous of you, Karen. The mortal remains of the close relative in my family who perished in the air war were never located. The entire bombload of his B-17 detonated shortly after the plane's port wing was blown off by flak; the few bits of uncharred aluminum left were quickly scrapped by the Germans. A few seconds of terror--and then the start of an eternity with his Almighty Lord.

I really hope that you can cherish what you have, rather than bemoan what you feel you have lost.

Best always to you and your dad,

Dan

[Jack Cook]

I agree with all of you.
What bothers me is that I feel that Karen and her whole family were strung along during this whole episode. Everyone seems to be in agreement that there was no intention of ever putting this P-51B back into it's original markings. Karen and her family should have been informed from the git-go instead of finding out second hand when the airplane's almost done. That really sucks folks!!!! Since they have heard of all the quote unquote verbal attacks against the owner/restorers here on the wix board they could have gotten in touch with Karen here.
If the Corsair my cousin Don was KIA in was ever drug up from the Sea of Japan and restored in someone elses marking I'd be pissed too!

[KarenG]

I love you all!!

I am truly blessed to have such a great bunch of friends! You are the most decent fellows it has ever been my honor to know! I believe Dean is aware of what is going on, and that all of you are my reward for my efforts! There has been so much good to come out of all of this, and as one of you pointed out, Dean's memory will live on, not only in my family's memory, but through all of you as well. I believe I have accomplished far more in what has come to pass, then if I had managed to see the Mustang painted as she once was.

It has been a long day. Dad had to have surgery this morning on an uncancer related issue. It all went well, and he is home now. I had a lot of time to think, and to cry, and to say "ok enough!" I need to keep focused on the only thing that is important here and that is Dean. I thought again today about ways to preserve all of these memories. I have decided I am going to start searching for a good photo of Dean's "Super Snooper" plane. That is the Recon plane from Italy.

I am also going to see if I can find a way to get a color photo of the woodpecker painting. If I can't see the whole bird again, then I will have the memories of her artwork, through Martin's beautiful photos, and the two beautiful renditions of her that both Steve, and Dan have been so unbelievably kind and generous to do!!.

Well, this closes the book on 43-12252 for me and for my family. I don't want to see her. I would have come to accept her painted as a generic P-51 for a squadron, in time, but it appears that will not happen.

From now on when I picture Dean soaring above the clouds it will be in his "Super Snooper" not his death machine!

From the bottom of my heart I thank you all!

Karen

Last edited by KarenG on Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:40 am, edited 2 times in total.

[O.P.]

I would find it hard to believe that this is anything other than a misunderstanding. Making Jack Roush and Bud Anderson out to be bad guys is wrong. Guy's like that don't obtain the stature they have in this community by misleading people and handing out raw deals.

I know what has been said in this thread and the other about paint jobs, here's my 2 cents. It takes a lot, I mean a heck of a lot of motivation and drive to aquire, restore, and fly warbirds. From what I can see, for most people, including myself, it's takes the better part of a lifetime. Just getting to the flying stage of that dream takes years. I know the common phrase used when describing warbird ownership is, "It's a memorial to the men who flew them". I believe thats true. I also believe that that is not the only reason, or even the first or second reason. My personal motivation for what I'm doing warbird wise is,

1. I want to fly.
2. I want to fly warbirds.
3. Everything else is third.

There are very few warbirds flying around in their "Correct" colors. I did not, and am not spending all of my time and money doing warbirds for someone elses enjoyment. I'm doing it for my enjoyment, if you have a good time too, cool, if you don't, cool.

Col England is no less deserving, and he was thier friend. Good enough for me.

[JBoyle]

but honestly I would have rather seen her remain a twisted pile of metal then to have her passed off as something she is not.

Karen...
That's disappointment talking, I'm sure you don't mean it...or won't once you calm down. The fact remains that the the bits of the Mustang were never yours to name. To say what you said, dishonors your uncle's memory more than not having a plane painted as "his".

At least it will be honoring another Air Force pilot...England AFB, LA (now closed) was named after Col. England...the AF doesn't take the naming of bases lightly...so I'm sure he is worthy of the honor.

[KarenG]

I am sure Col England is worthy as well!

Please, understand I mean no disrespect to Col. England, or to Col. Anderson, or to any veteran on any war!!! ! However, I have to believe there are other airframes out there that do not have a pilot that was killed in them that could be used to honor the Colonel. Please take a moment and put the shoe on the other foot. If Dean had been the ace, and killed in 1954, and the Col. had perished in 43-11252, how do you think the Cols family would feel?

Yes, I am disappointed, but I am more upset that it appears to me in Jack Roush's eyes Dean's sacrifice was not worthy of his consideration.

Karen

Last edited by KarenG on Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

[O.P.]

but I am more angry that in Jack Roush's eyes Dean's sacrifice is not worthy of his consideration, because he was "only" a recon pilot, and not a Fighter Ace.

Karen

I hope you don't believe that. How about, they spent years and millions of dollars putting together a rare P-51 that will also honor someone they actually knew, their friend.

Or on the other shoes kinda thing, lets say you went out, got a P-51, restored it with the intention of having your uncles colors on it, and I come up to you sometime during that process and tell you about a guy who died in a piece of the now complete airplane, and that it would be a good memorial to that guy. When that doesn't happen, I say bad things about you. I think you'll agree, thats not right.

[mjanovec]

One bright ray of hope is to remember that paint jobs on warbirds tend to change over the years. So while the plane will be painted as a tribute to Col. England now, it will ALWAYS have a true history behind the airframe. The plane is bound to pass through hands over the years and I suspect someday it will wear it's true colors.

Also, anyone who studies the history behinds these warbirds will always be able to uncover the truth behind the airframe...and in that respect, people many decades from now will look upon that plane and uncover Dean's story.

The paint is temporary. The history is permanent.

Hope that makes you feel at least 1% better about the situation.

Mark

P.S. - For those who have met Bud Anderson in the past, I think they will attest that he is a great guy who would never try to do anything to trample over someone's memory.

[Brad]

but I am more angry that in Jack Roush's eyes Dean's sacrifice is not worthy of his consideration, because he was "only" a recon pilot, and not a Fighter Ace.

Karen

Karen,

When you get done with the self pity, I hope you realize how stupid that sounds! You made that statement, not Mr. Roush!

Up until today, I pretty much agreed with your quest to get Jack Roush's plane painted in you're uncle's colors, up until now. Even though it was never your place to decide how it was painted. I don't doubt for a second that your Uncle was a fine man(God rest his soul) and well deserving of that honor.

I don't know Jack Roush, but I'm sure he doesn't mean anything as a slight to you or your family. Even though I never met you're uncle, I've met many like him. I feel completly safe in saying that you are more concerned about this than he ever would be. That's very admirable, but I think you are wrong to make Jack Roush out to be the villian.

[Jack Cook]

I agree with everyone again here especially you Brad. You love those vets has much has I do. You all don't understand Karen's anger over this because your missing out on the back channels messages accussing Karen and other WIXers of verbally attacking Jack Raush over the last year or so.

You're not going to like what I'm about to say, and I will not name names
here, as there is no reason to "stir the sh*t" anymore than what's been done
already. There's no easy way to say this, so I'll just say it...Certain
people on the other side of the issue are NOT very happy with what has been
said recently on WIX, by you and others. Believe me when I tell you, "not
very happy" is putting it mildly! I have also been made aware of comments
made some time ago towards these people

All I can say is that certain
things supposedly said in the past, together with what has been said on WIX
has left some people very pissed off.

What a bunch of bull. If they'd just said from the beginning what their plans for the airplane were this all would be over and done with. Imagine how Dean Gilmore's brother and sisters will feel when they learn the truth after waiting all these years for their brother's plane to fly again. This really could have brought some closure for them over what I'm sure was a horrible loss for their family. Jack Raush is no bad guy here but maybe a little inconsiderate??!!??

[Randy Haskin]

I would have rather seen her remain a twisted pile of metal then to have her passed off as something she is not.

The airplane is still the same airplane, regardless of how she is painted.