Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:16 pm
Of all the threads that have been posted on this site, this has to be one of the most ridiculous. I'm not really sure where you get the idea that Mr. Rousch is under some sort of obligation to paint HIS airplane the way you would like. If not for Mr. Rousch, this airplane wouldn't even exist anymore.
A few people on this board really need to get over thier sense of self-importance (big ego). If you wonder why a lot of people in the warbird business do not participate on this board, it's because of crap like this.
I'm sorry if you feel your uncle is not being given the tribute he deserves, but you're losing sight of the fact that they're preserving airplanes, not individuals. He's taking a plane that would have rotted, and turned it into something that a lot of people for generations can enjoy.
A few people on this board really need to get over thier sense of self-importance (big ego). If you wonder why a lot of people in the warbird business do not participate on this board, it's because of crap like this.
I'm sorry if you feel your uncle is not being given the tribute he deserves, but you're losing sight of the fact that they're preserving airplanes, not individuals. He's taking a plane that would have rotted, and turned it into something that a lot of people for generations can enjoy.
Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:46 pm
You're quite the charmer, Vince.
Does Mrs. S know you're such a sensitive guy?
Does Mrs. S know you're such a sensitive guy?
Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:51 pm
Vince S. wrote:Of all the threads that have been posted on this site, this has to be one of the most ridiculous. I'm not really sure where you get the idea that Mr. Rousch is under some sort of obligation to paint HIS airplane the way you would like. If not for Mr. Rousch, this airplane wouldn't even exist anymore.
A few people on this board really need to get over thier sense of self-importance (big ego). If you wonder why a lot of people in the warbird business do not participate on this board, it's because of crap like this.
I'm sorry if you feel your uncle is not being given the tribute he deserves, but you're losing sight of the fact that they're preserving airplanes, not individuals. He's taking a plane that would have rotted, and turned it into something that a lot of people for generations can enjoy.
Vince, please read the thread from the beginning. Understand that Karen is acknowledging Mr. Rousch's right to do with the aircraft as he pleases. She's been pretty clear that it's an emotional issue for her. She clearly had hopes that Mr. Rouch's P51 would end up in Dean Gilmore's markings.
At the same time, in many ways it's just as rediculous for Mr. Rousch to use the serial number of that 51 as let's face it, what came out of the lake wasn't much and clearly not the aircraft that will be attached to that serial number in the hopes of giving it some historical provinence.
I'd suggest that posts like you just added only fuel the fire instead of helping with the understanding and possibly healing from the loss Karen's family still feels. It had it's own sense of self importance as well.
Again, I think it important to recognize the emotion attached to something very personal for Karen and keep that in mind when people reply. She's allowed to have those feelings, just as Mr. Rousch is free to do with that 51 as he chooses and his money allows.
Dan
P-51B
Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:27 pm
Vince,
You just don't get it. It's not about planes it's about people. Everyone of these aircraft has a story behind and this one has a big story. You and most everyone else connected with the airplane don't seem to care about the young man who actually flew and died in this airplane and the family who still suffers with the grief of his loss.
Dan II is correct that the only interest in this airplane was the get title so to license this reproduction.
Dan k. is also correct, you are a charmer.
You just don't get it. It's not about planes it's about people. Everyone of these aircraft has a story behind and this one has a big story. You and most everyone else connected with the airplane don't seem to care about the young man who actually flew and died in this airplane and the family who still suffers with the grief of his loss.
Dan II is correct that the only interest in this airplane was the get title so to license this reproduction.
Dan k. is also correct, you are a charmer.
Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:39 pm
My post was in no way a personal attack on Karen. She however makes some very rude remarks about Jack Rousch and Bud Anderson, two people I am sure she does not know. I understand her grief and I'm not in any way dismissing their feelings. I'm under the impression this is a forum for information to be exchanged not to personally attack anyone. For example, I posted my opinion to her letter and recieved back that I was a "charmer". Thanks. My wife does think so too.
Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:19 pm
Could you e-mail the complete story about this?
I would like to put up a story section on my website!
Repsectfully,
Paul Krumrei
www.warbird-central.com
I would like to put up a story section on my website!
Repsectfully,
Paul Krumrei
www.warbird-central.com
Dean's Ride
Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:16 am
Paul Krumrei,
There is no way anyone could E-mail this "story" to you..quite impossible!
The best I can do is to refer you to the recent thread, "A Final Note On
Dean's Plane", which's currently about 10 threads previous. In that thread
you'll find a link back to January. Previous to that..you'll have to dig thru the archives. There is no simple "answer" to the intracacies of this history.
This is a story with the weight of a family's 61yrs. of loss,emotion,&hope.
Vince S.,
If this is the most ridiculous thread that you have been exposed to..then
I surmise that you don't follow things too closely here. As I said to Paul..
please refer back to the former history and recovery, and the family
hopes for Dean's last ride, 43-12252. Karen is distraught..and severely
upset at the recent turn of fortune. Consider this thread as if you have
entered the "funeral parlor"...and these responses from the family are those one might experience in such surroundings. You might wish this
could have happened somewhere else. And it could have..but it didn't..
so we will band together, and get through this.
I feel very much responsible for Karen's release of emotion. I have been
familiar with Dean's story since late last year. With her most recent posts
I became an ardent supporter of the Gilmore family's cause. I never had
the best-case scenario of Dean's machine being finished and displayed
in his "colors" permanently..but I at least hoped for..some decals to be
applied..and photos taken. At the max, perhaps 43-12252 could fly over
a "certain Maple tree" in Pennsylvania, with a 79yr old gent witnessing
a fading memory....again.
But, I guess it's not to be. Maybe they already had the '51 in primer..and it would make a major dent in Mr Roush's finances. Maybe he already has photo-shoots and airshows set up in the planned livery...I can't say. He had his reasons for not being able to have 43-12252 displayed in her and
Lt Gilmores final colors, and we will all live with that.
Regardless, Mr Roush has the livery of a Vet he wished to honor at ready.
I never intended in my "effort for the Gilmore's", to pit the sacrifice of one
Veteran against another Veterans sacrifice. In fact, I thought of it as a chance to honour 2 Vets, with one machine in the same year we are
honoring the sacrifices of all the Vets of the war ending 60 yrs ago.
I feel very sick about this whole turn of events...If I'd kept my Yap shut,
perhaps Karen wouldn't have had her hopes built up so much. My
apologies to all....
ps
as of late, I understand 43-12252 will not make it to Thunder Over Michigan..I hope it's not for the lack of a "paint job"...if so..I have these
nifty decals of a woodpecker with stars....
There is no way anyone could E-mail this "story" to you..quite impossible!
The best I can do is to refer you to the recent thread, "A Final Note On
Dean's Plane", which's currently about 10 threads previous. In that thread
you'll find a link back to January. Previous to that..you'll have to dig thru the archives. There is no simple "answer" to the intracacies of this history.
This is a story with the weight of a family's 61yrs. of loss,emotion,&hope.
Vince S.,
If this is the most ridiculous thread that you have been exposed to..then
I surmise that you don't follow things too closely here. As I said to Paul..
please refer back to the former history and recovery, and the family
hopes for Dean's last ride, 43-12252. Karen is distraught..and severely
upset at the recent turn of fortune. Consider this thread as if you have
entered the "funeral parlor"...and these responses from the family are those one might experience in such surroundings. You might wish this
could have happened somewhere else. And it could have..but it didn't..
so we will band together, and get through this.
I feel very much responsible for Karen's release of emotion. I have been
familiar with Dean's story since late last year. With her most recent posts
I became an ardent supporter of the Gilmore family's cause. I never had
the best-case scenario of Dean's machine being finished and displayed
in his "colors" permanently..but I at least hoped for..some decals to be
applied..and photos taken. At the max, perhaps 43-12252 could fly over
a "certain Maple tree" in Pennsylvania, with a 79yr old gent witnessing
a fading memory....again.
But, I guess it's not to be. Maybe they already had the '51 in primer..and it would make a major dent in Mr Roush's finances. Maybe he already has photo-shoots and airshows set up in the planned livery...I can't say. He had his reasons for not being able to have 43-12252 displayed in her and
Lt Gilmores final colors, and we will all live with that.
Regardless, Mr Roush has the livery of a Vet he wished to honor at ready.
I never intended in my "effort for the Gilmore's", to pit the sacrifice of one
Veteran against another Veterans sacrifice. In fact, I thought of it as a chance to honour 2 Vets, with one machine in the same year we are
honoring the sacrifices of all the Vets of the war ending 60 yrs ago.
I feel very sick about this whole turn of events...If I'd kept my Yap shut,
perhaps Karen wouldn't have had her hopes built up so much. My
apologies to all....
ps
as of late, I understand 43-12252 will not make it to Thunder Over Michigan..I hope it's not for the lack of a "paint job"...if so..I have these
nifty decals of a woodpecker with stars....
Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:25 am
Ok everyone lets calm down please!
1) I have nothing but the utmost respect for Bud Anderson and all the other veterans. I in NO WAY meant any disrespect towards him and any other veteran of any war! Especially not Col. England!
2) I FULLY accept and acknowledge Jack Roush's right to paint this plane anyway he chooses.
3) Yes, I was talking from my heart, and while that may be interpreted as self pity, it has nothing to do with me.
4) I don't know WHAT Jack Roush is thinking, or what he intended, or didn't intend for this plane, because I have never spoken to him. I have tried! I have gone through channels, I have emailed people, I have sent Dean's story to several people that I know over the past four years could have gotten the information to him. I am not that hard to contact. The Orlando Sentinel found me whan Dean's plane was first discovered.....I'm reachable!
5) I regret a few of the comments I made. If you read my past posts you will see I am not a confrontational hot head! It is rare that I get angry enough to let loose with what is on my mind. If I was unfair, or downright wrong in any of the things I wrote, I apologize from the bottom of my heart! Heart being the main word there.
As I said above, this is not about me. I will be dead in 20 or 30, or God willing 40 or 50 years. I would like to believe this machine will last much longer than that. I would not be able to live with myself if I knew I had not done everything I could to preserve her true history. In my mind, what I see when she is finished, is everyone giving accolades to what she is now, not what she once was. I just wanted to be the voice that spoke for Dean. I see that I may have not chosen the best way to do that.
I am sorry all! I hope you all know I would never do anything to disrespect Dean or any other veteran! That statement hurts me a lot!
For those of you who have said here, and who have emailed me that I have "attacked" Jack Roush, I did NOT mean my words as an attack, I meant it as criticism. Was I unfair, yes, perhaps I was, and for that I, again, apologize. I have always taught my children that words can hurt as much if not more than physical attacks, and I hope that mine didn't.
Again, I thank all of you who have been so kind throughout the last four years.
Karen
1) I have nothing but the utmost respect for Bud Anderson and all the other veterans. I in NO WAY meant any disrespect towards him and any other veteran of any war! Especially not Col. England!
2) I FULLY accept and acknowledge Jack Roush's right to paint this plane anyway he chooses.
3) Yes, I was talking from my heart, and while that may be interpreted as self pity, it has nothing to do with me.
4) I don't know WHAT Jack Roush is thinking, or what he intended, or didn't intend for this plane, because I have never spoken to him. I have tried! I have gone through channels, I have emailed people, I have sent Dean's story to several people that I know over the past four years could have gotten the information to him. I am not that hard to contact. The Orlando Sentinel found me whan Dean's plane was first discovered.....I'm reachable!
5) I regret a few of the comments I made. If you read my past posts you will see I am not a confrontational hot head! It is rare that I get angry enough to let loose with what is on my mind. If I was unfair, or downright wrong in any of the things I wrote, I apologize from the bottom of my heart! Heart being the main word there.
As I said above, this is not about me. I will be dead in 20 or 30, or God willing 40 or 50 years. I would like to believe this machine will last much longer than that. I would not be able to live with myself if I knew I had not done everything I could to preserve her true history. In my mind, what I see when she is finished, is everyone giving accolades to what she is now, not what she once was. I just wanted to be the voice that spoke for Dean. I see that I may have not chosen the best way to do that.
I am sorry all! I hope you all know I would never do anything to disrespect Dean or any other veteran! That statement hurts me a lot!
For those of you who have said here, and who have emailed me that I have "attacked" Jack Roush, I did NOT mean my words as an attack, I meant it as criticism. Was I unfair, yes, perhaps I was, and for that I, again, apologize. I have always taught my children that words can hurt as much if not more than physical attacks, and I hope that mine didn't.
Again, I thank all of you who have been so kind throughout the last four years.
Karen
Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:25 am
By the way all.....
Here are the human faces in all of this.....
The first picture is of my Dad.
The second picture is of "Grandpa Harry" still wearing Dean's jacket several years after he died.
The third pictue was taken in Italy, as was the last picture. The smile in that last picture is what I always see when I think of Dean.
One other "family footnote" Grandpa Harry buried Dean, November, 1944. Dean was his youngest son. 18 months later he buried my thirty nine year old grandfather, who was his oldest son, after he drowned in a flash flood.
Here are the human faces in all of this.....
The first picture is of my Dad.
The second picture is of "Grandpa Harry" still wearing Dean's jacket several years after he died.
The third pictue was taken in Italy, as was the last picture. The smile in that last picture is what I always see when I think of Dean.
One other "family footnote" Grandpa Harry buried Dean, November, 1944. Dean was his youngest son. 18 months later he buried my thirty nine year old grandfather, who was his oldest son, after he drowned in a flash flood.
Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:58 am
I had a tough descision to make on this thread. It is skirting the rules of personal attacks But I will have to go through it message by message to decide that, something that will have to wait until tommorrow. For now I will lock the thread and decide later wiether to remove it.
I must say that having to do this annoys me. We have all learned in the last year that the text form of communications has a flaw. It does not convey emotions well and people tend to read into these messages influenced by thier own emotions regarding the subject. Try and be objective when you read the messages and please do not respond on some gut level. Take you time and think about what you say. And also, don't be a coward and say stuff that you wouldn't say if you were talking to the person or subject face-to-face. It's so easier to be holier-than-thou when you don't have to witness the pain and anger you caused.
With that said, this is a free speech forum and as long as you don't attack someone then your opinion has a place here. I've had complaints about this thread but as long as I do not find any personal attacks I will leave it. If there are then the WHOLE thread will be removed. I don't like to do this, I would rather spend my time being productive but I also will not allow inflamatory idiots to ruin this forum for the 600+ members who know how to be civil.
I must say that having to do this annoys me. We have all learned in the last year that the text form of communications has a flaw. It does not convey emotions well and people tend to read into these messages influenced by thier own emotions regarding the subject. Try and be objective when you read the messages and please do not respond on some gut level. Take you time and think about what you say. And also, don't be a coward and say stuff that you wouldn't say if you were talking to the person or subject face-to-face. It's so easier to be holier-than-thou when you don't have to witness the pain and anger you caused.
With that said, this is a free speech forum and as long as you don't attack someone then your opinion has a place here. I've had complaints about this thread but as long as I do not find any personal attacks I will leave it. If there are then the WHOLE thread will be removed. I don't like to do this, I would rather spend my time being productive but I also will not allow inflamatory idiots to ruin this forum for the 600+ members who know how to be civil.