Photographers, What can a Show do for you?
Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:52 am
I wasn't sure how to title this, but it's really geared to the photographers and hard core warbird show goers.
I'm looking for some input as to the best way to accommodate the general public's expectations of a show (the majority of the paid attendees) with those of the hard core guys like us. I'm talking about things similar to the photo pit at Thunder Over Michigan and similar special areas or "treatment" of those with a more discerning air show palette.
Having never been to Thunder, I can't comment on the usage or location of the Photo Pit, but I have some ideas on how to add some value to an event by creating special access to specific displays or locations at the show.
My first thought is that the Photo Pit should actually be TWO Photo Pits, one at each end of the flight line so that no matter which end of the runway aircraft are taking off and landing from, you'd have access to that part of the show line. There would also be no air show announcing or music in the pit areas, just airplane noise.
Also, perhaps in certain areas a raised platform or trailer could be set-up or even moved around so that different angles with no peoples heads in the way could be accomplished, with access both early in the day and a sunset.
What would you guys be looking for, besides an Air-to-Air session
that would make it worth paying extra? Also, how much would you be willing to pay for that?
Jerry
I'm looking for some input as to the best way to accommodate the general public's expectations of a show (the majority of the paid attendees) with those of the hard core guys like us. I'm talking about things similar to the photo pit at Thunder Over Michigan and similar special areas or "treatment" of those with a more discerning air show palette.
Having never been to Thunder, I can't comment on the usage or location of the Photo Pit, but I have some ideas on how to add some value to an event by creating special access to specific displays or locations at the show.
My first thought is that the Photo Pit should actually be TWO Photo Pits, one at each end of the flight line so that no matter which end of the runway aircraft are taking off and landing from, you'd have access to that part of the show line. There would also be no air show announcing or music in the pit areas, just airplane noise.
Also, perhaps in certain areas a raised platform or trailer could be set-up or even moved around so that different angles with no peoples heads in the way could be accomplished, with access both early in the day and a sunset.
What would you guys be looking for, besides an Air-to-Air session
that would make it worth paying extra? Also, how much would you be willing to pay for that?
Jerry
Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:04 am
I think a good person for you to talk to would be Kevin Grantham from Frederick, MD. He ran the Media for that show, and was just about the best Media coordinator that I've come across. Wait, we're friends, so he's definitely the best!
If you want his email, PM me.
He always worked on a2a, had a trailer, had a tent, had a scissor-lift, etc.
Rich
If you want his email, PM me.
He always worked on a2a, had a trailer, had a tent, had a scissor-lift, etc.
Rich
Re: Photographers, What can a Show do for you?
Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:47 am
My first thought is... If you have the ability to be flexible on the orientation of the flight line, arrange it so the sun is to your back all day. As hard as organizers work to make a great show, it is a major flaw if you are shooting into the sun all day.
I did not make it to Thunder this year, so I can't comment on the 2009 show. In past years the Thunder photo pit has be very worthwhile. It was positioned on the corner where the two angled flight lines came together so you were often presented with top side views as the planes made their turns around the corner.
The tent and the endless supply of water is also another major plus, especially for those bringing along spouses who are not as enthusiastic as well are.
The early morning photo tour is also another important feature allowing us to get static shots before the masses arrive. That would be a good time to use platforms or scissor lifts.
Thanks for asking!
Mike
Jerry O'Neill wrote:My first thought is that the Photo Pit should actually be TWO Photo Pits, one at each end of the flight line so that no matter which end of the runway aircraft are taking off and landing from, you'd have access to that part of the show line. There would also be no air show announcing or music in the pit areas, just airplane noise.
Also, perhaps in certain areas a raised platform or trailer could be set-up or even moved around so that different angles with no peoples heads in the way could be accomplished, with access both early in the day and a sunset.
I did not make it to Thunder this year, so I can't comment on the 2009 show. In past years the Thunder photo pit has be very worthwhile. It was positioned on the corner where the two angled flight lines came together so you were often presented with top side views as the planes made their turns around the corner.
The tent and the endless supply of water is also another major plus, especially for those bringing along spouses who are not as enthusiastic as well are.
The early morning photo tour is also another important feature allowing us to get static shots before the masses arrive. That would be a good time to use platforms or scissor lifts.
Thanks for asking!
Mike
Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:17 pm
richkolasa wrote:I think a good person for you to talk to would be Kevin Grantham from Frederick, MD. He ran the Media for that show, and was just about the best Media coordinator that I've come across. Wait, we're friends, so he's definitely the best!
If you want his email, PM me.
He always worked on a2a, had a trailer, had a tent, had a scissor-lift, etc.
Rich
Rich;
Yes it would be good to talk to him, I'll PM you, but I was really not driving my question at the Media per se, but at the fan base that is really into warbirds.
The Media will get the A2A stuff and everything that goes along with it, but I'm kind of looking for the stuff people think about or would like to see happen and would pay a premium for to be a part of it. An event that people will want to go to every year bcause it was so different.
Jerry
Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:41 pm
If you are putting together a wish list, throw in a "Night Tour" and Night engine runs as well. I have seen some interesting "painting with light" shots, though this would have to be a very small or one on one type arrangement.
Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:28 pm
Yes, please move the sun so it is always at our backs!! Shooting into the sun really does suck, but I realize airports were not laid out with photographers in mind.
Early access, and access after the crowds have gone. With the early access, all canopy covers off!! A plane with a cover does not interest me at all, (yes I do know why they are there). No ropes or barriers around the planes. A rolling ladder would be cool to.
As for night engine runs, hell yes. Bring on the flames.
Early access, and access after the crowds have gone. With the early access, all canopy covers off!! A plane with a cover does not interest me at all, (yes I do know why they are there). No ropes or barriers around the planes. A rolling ladder would be cool to.
As for night engine runs, hell yes. Bring on the flames.
Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:28 pm
I gotta agree with the Mike about the light. that is the most important aspect from a photographers point of view.
Our local big show has the ramp on the east side of the runway. Most of the acts are back lit. It also takes place in the fall so the sun is south of the airport. It would be great to have access to the west side.
Also an arrival day opening for photogs would be great. I have seen folks out in the grass near the runway on Fridays. that would be great. I don't know how the FAA would feel about that but a well behaved group of folks should be able to be safe. The night time ramp access would be very cool as well.
Our local show is having a paid ($80 per day) tour and pit. But it will be at show center along the crowd line...bad light...therefore I wouldn't think it would be worth the money. If is was flexible with the light and included Friday I would jump on it.
http://www.allianceairshow.com/Photos/PitTour.aspx
Our local big show has the ramp on the east side of the runway. Most of the acts are back lit. It also takes place in the fall so the sun is south of the airport. It would be great to have access to the west side.
Also an arrival day opening for photogs would be great. I have seen folks out in the grass near the runway on Fridays. that would be great. I don't know how the FAA would feel about that but a well behaved group of folks should be able to be safe. The night time ramp access would be very cool as well.
Our local show is having a paid ($80 per day) tour and pit. But it will be at show center along the crowd line...bad light...therefore I wouldn't think it would be worth the money. If is was flexible with the light and included Friday I would jump on it.
http://www.allianceairshow.com/Photos/PitTour.aspx
Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:50 pm
A couple of things I'd like to see happen:
Obviously, the Sun position is always a problem, and depending on location of the airport, may be insurmountable.
I'd like to set-up multiple photo pits so that by moving between them, someone can work for the shot they want.
Early Morning, Late Day, Arrival Day and a Night set-up are all good and something I would want to see.
Several platforms or trailers (movable) to give some height for video and still photos. Maybe even a lift could be utilized, but that might be an insurance problem.
I know a lot of you don't like it, but I think set pieces with re-enactors and equipment would work well, as long as all modern items, especially in the background, are eliminated.
I would especially like to see a jeep and an ambulance parked near the approach end of the runway with re-enactors standing by watching the aircraft return. Similar to a famous WWII color shot of a B-17 returning. Planned properly, you could also fire a flare, a-la "Twelve O'Clock High",
for some real unique images.
I would also set-up WWII hardstands with re-enactors and equipment performing jobs, ie: fueling arming etc. The aircraft would not be lined up like on a flight line but staggered around as they would've been in combat a theater. As the timing progressed, photogs would be allowed to get closer to the "set piece" so all shots wouldn't have to be wide or use a telephoto lense.
Any multiple aircraft you arrange would have the same squadron or group markings so it would appear as one unit instead of different markings.
That's a few of my ideas for now.
What does anyone else have that would be great.
Jerry
Obviously, the Sun position is always a problem, and depending on location of the airport, may be insurmountable.
I'd like to set-up multiple photo pits so that by moving between them, someone can work for the shot they want.
Early Morning, Late Day, Arrival Day and a Night set-up are all good and something I would want to see.
Several platforms or trailers (movable) to give some height for video and still photos. Maybe even a lift could be utilized, but that might be an insurance problem.
I know a lot of you don't like it, but I think set pieces with re-enactors and equipment would work well, as long as all modern items, especially in the background, are eliminated.
I would especially like to see a jeep and an ambulance parked near the approach end of the runway with re-enactors standing by watching the aircraft return. Similar to a famous WWII color shot of a B-17 returning. Planned properly, you could also fire a flare, a-la "Twelve O'Clock High",
for some real unique images.
I would also set-up WWII hardstands with re-enactors and equipment performing jobs, ie: fueling arming etc. The aircraft would not be lined up like on a flight line but staggered around as they would've been in combat a theater. As the timing progressed, photogs would be allowed to get closer to the "set piece" so all shots wouldn't have to be wide or use a telephoto lense.
Any multiple aircraft you arrange would have the same squadron or group markings so it would appear as one unit instead of different markings.
That's a few of my ideas for now.
What does anyone else have that would be great.
Jerry
Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:16 pm
As a performer advocate and friend to photographers (one that will admit to it), I'd like to see air conditioning and imported beer in the performer chalets and a golf cart shuttle service operated by the Bombshell girls. As for the photographers, I hope all your air show dreams come true. Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread. Carry on and peace out.
Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:49 pm
T33driver wrote:...and a golf cart shuttle service operated by the Bombshell girls.....
I think we should have you driving the golf carts and the girls flying the airplanes. I mean ~wait for it~ how hard can it be?
Golf carts don't have gearshifts, do they?
Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:52 pm
More seriously... Great idea for a thread, Jerry. Most of my experience for special access is for press, but the principle can also apply. Some other random thoughts, to add to the good ones so far.
The Shuttleworth Collection do flightline walks for the photo groups - I'm rusty on the details, but it's normally an escorted small group, maybe one of the OW crew can chime in here. Duxford used to do the same for press, and it's often a case of trying to heard cats as the various photographers try to get 'the shot' and in each others' way. I think it's been stopped / restricted as they were annoying the (paid-for) flightline walk crowd given they were in the FW people's photos.
You'll need a clear, signed agreement, and be prepared to sanction people who overstep the boundaries of the extras offered. Almost all the photographers are going to be reasonable people, but in my experience there's often one or two who take what's given and demand more. Sometimes putting themselves and others at risk.
Duxford used to do a press photographers pit on the far side of the runway, back in the late 80s. There was a liability disclaimer, and given that it was in the area near where there were a couple of accidents years later, there are issues. But it can deal with the sun direction issue, and careful planning can moderate risks.
The Classic Fighter show at Omaka had a truckbed on the show side of a big screen for press in 2007 (and I think 09) for the press, and this gave the photographers great access (on the corner of the flightline) and also, because of the screen, they weren't themselves blocking the crowd view; the screen was.
Limit the numbers so it doesn't become a zoo.
Perhaps first come first served, or tickets on the day, and for future years, those that can demonstrate support of the show with published photos or material supplied to the show for the show's use. - Roughly what Duxford do/did for press (acknowledging the different criteria).
Stuff like night, dusk, covers off, stands or crane shots are all great. Make sure it's clear how to get on these specials, manage the numbers and be clear that there are time limits. There are some 'photographers' who take an age to get a shot because they aren't as good as they think they are; and everyone else has to wait up or wait for - not good in changing light or a short engine run.
Night engine runs for instance. Have it well stewarded, clear no trespass limits. I've seen pro- as well as amateur photographers prepared to walk into props jet intakes while trying to get 'the shot'.
Recriators is a split - some love it, some hate; but I like your thinking and it'll be good publicity for your show. Just don't bring down the visiting 172 with the flare.
HTH.
The Shuttleworth Collection do flightline walks for the photo groups - I'm rusty on the details, but it's normally an escorted small group, maybe one of the OW crew can chime in here. Duxford used to do the same for press, and it's often a case of trying to heard cats as the various photographers try to get 'the shot' and in each others' way. I think it's been stopped / restricted as they were annoying the (paid-for) flightline walk crowd given they were in the FW people's photos.
You'll need a clear, signed agreement, and be prepared to sanction people who overstep the boundaries of the extras offered. Almost all the photographers are going to be reasonable people, but in my experience there's often one or two who take what's given and demand more. Sometimes putting themselves and others at risk.
Duxford used to do a press photographers pit on the far side of the runway, back in the late 80s. There was a liability disclaimer, and given that it was in the area near where there were a couple of accidents years later, there are issues. But it can deal with the sun direction issue, and careful planning can moderate risks.
The Classic Fighter show at Omaka had a truckbed on the show side of a big screen for press in 2007 (and I think 09) for the press, and this gave the photographers great access (on the corner of the flightline) and also, because of the screen, they weren't themselves blocking the crowd view; the screen was.
Limit the numbers so it doesn't become a zoo.
Perhaps first come first served, or tickets on the day, and for future years, those that can demonstrate support of the show with published photos or material supplied to the show for the show's use. - Roughly what Duxford do/did for press (acknowledging the different criteria).
Stuff like night, dusk, covers off, stands or crane shots are all great. Make sure it's clear how to get on these specials, manage the numbers and be clear that there are time limits. There are some 'photographers' who take an age to get a shot because they aren't as good as they think they are; and everyone else has to wait up or wait for - not good in changing light or a short engine run.
Night engine runs for instance. Have it well stewarded, clear no trespass limits. I've seen pro- as well as amateur photographers prepared to walk into props jet intakes while trying to get 'the shot'.
Recriators is a split - some love it, some hate; but I like your thinking and it'll be good publicity for your show. Just don't bring down the visiting 172 with the flare.
HTH.
Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:24 pm
Something simple......takeoffs and landings should occur at the runway next / closest to the photopit. If folks are paying big dollars then they should get the biggest bang for the buck. This is perhaps the biggest gripe I hear about when working the photopit at TOM. ( next to sunlight which little if anything can be done about).
Jeff
Jeff
Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:40 pm
T33driver wrote: I'd like to see air conditioning and imported beer in the performer chalets and a golf cart shuttle service operated by the Bombshell girls.
I'm buying a freaking airplane.
But
I like the double pit idea, there has been years at thunder when nothing lands near you and the pattern is not giving you very good shots.
If you can have the aircraft fly the loop on the backside of the crowd line. This gives great shots of the aircraft coming in.
The other thing that would be very cool is to flip the show schedule 180 for Sunday. It seems Clouds roll in late afternoon and really screw up pictures. OR the sun changes and kills the afternoon or makes shooting better.
Lots of water included in the pits are sweet, I love leaving an airshow without a headache
A beer tent on the flightline that is open until Midnight like Geneseo is always very nice, WIX even brings its own beer.
Tim
Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:49 pm
Lots of good points here. I think TOM is about the best photo-pit I have ever seen and this year it got better with an expanded area and even an elevated platform. I thought there would be fights for sure but it all worked out and everyone was civil on the platform. About the only improvement I could see is the suggestion made here about having another pit at the other end of the flight line. Shade, no loud speaker poles, chairs and water are mandatory as well as enough elbow room for all the photographers along the fence.
Below are some shots of the Thunder Over Michigan Photo-pit which is the largest photo-pit I have ever seen.
Below are some shots of the Thunder Over Michigan Photo-pit which is the largest photo-pit I have ever seen.
Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:57 pm
Photo Priority List
1) Positions between sun and flight path for photographers.
2) Position as close as possible to flight path.
3) Early & late access for static shots.
4) Photo pits are nice, but not essential. They do eliminate the guilt when
I stand to pan. In addition, it is good to talk to the other photogs.
5) Tents, handy beverages, etc. are nice but not a real factor for me.
1) Positions between sun and flight path for photographers.
2) Position as close as possible to flight path.
3) Early & late access for static shots.
4) Photo pits are nice, but not essential. They do eliminate the guilt when
I stand to pan. In addition, it is good to talk to the other photogs.
5) Tents, handy beverages, etc. are nice but not a real factor for me.