Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:33 am
Rajay wrote:When wild animals behave like that, they are usually tested for rabies.
Thankfully most rabid animals have more sense than to post on the internet.
Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:32 am
More seriously...
Interesting point, some subtle factors. The AVG are far over-represented in preserved P-40 schemes, IMHO. There are two reasons for this, one is the period publicity at the time, spotlighting them for reasons of propaganda/PR and morale, understandable given the state of the war for the US at the time, but over-emphasising their importance within the history of W.W.II.
The second reason is that they were the most prominent 'American' P-40 unit, despite good work done by other US P-40 units in the Pacific and North Africa. Again, the work of the 49th FG and the North African units doesn't deserve to be cast into permanent shadow by the AVG, as they effectively are.
Are the AVG 'over'-represented? Given the number of units, schemes, theatres and actions, and the number of P-40s in the one unit's colours, particularly aircraft that are entirely the wrong version for the scheme they wear, and the number of P-40s with interesting histories of their own masquerading as AVG aircraft, I feel it's a reasonable case. However for those who like their history in headline-only form, nothing but the AVG does.
As to the Eagle Squadrons and the AVG, while I'm no fan of Churchill, he was not a despot, attaining power through an internal war but a democratically elected leader trying to prevent 'a new dark age'. Here was a major difference between signing up to fight for the support of the last democracy in Europe and a successful warlord in China, however much Chiang Kai-shek may have been the best bet in a bad mess.
But I'd agree with the Ober that (some) fighter pilots can be less than discriminating as to who they sign up to fight with. The reverence paid here by many to those who put themselves in harms way can extend too widely. There are some who are keen just to fight, or to fly, and aren't to picky as to who and why - and this can include some of the best aces - Screwball Bearling being an example of a fighter beyond sense. (For the sensitive to any 'attack' on the greatest generation, this is just an acknowledgement that not every pilot's motives were as pure as some might wish to believe, however much the majority were doing a nasty job bravely and as well as they could.)
It is great that the the P-40 is being restored in numbers that show its importance in the history of W.W.II, rather than being such an 'also ran' in preserved warbird numbers, which is why, I suggest, that the over-representation of AVG schemes on P-40s is a redoubled pity; not only are they not going to be forgotten, the reverence paid to them is obscuring many other, no less worthy, units and operators. I was very disappointed to hear of another early P-40 under restoration that rather than painting in it's own, interesting historic scheme was going to be another draped with the AVG colours. (And a special prize to the Flying Heritage Collection with a long-term 'temporary' AVG schemed P-40.) It is a pity that so many owners want the same old thing. Thanks to those (like the Paul family, the recent prizewinner in N African colours at Oshkosh) who've rung the changes.
Just a few thoughts, YMMV.
Rajay wrote:If on the other hand, you simply want to make the point that maybe other WWII P-40 units have been under-represented in Warbird circles for too many years, that would be perfectly valid and I would also agree. I believe that point, however, can be made without denigrating the AVG.
Interesting point, some subtle factors. The AVG are far over-represented in preserved P-40 schemes, IMHO. There are two reasons for this, one is the period publicity at the time, spotlighting them for reasons of propaganda/PR and morale, understandable given the state of the war for the US at the time, but over-emphasising their importance within the history of W.W.II.
The second reason is that they were the most prominent 'American' P-40 unit, despite good work done by other US P-40 units in the Pacific and North Africa. Again, the work of the 49th FG and the North African units doesn't deserve to be cast into permanent shadow by the AVG, as they effectively are.
Are the AVG 'over'-represented? Given the number of units, schemes, theatres and actions, and the number of P-40s in the one unit's colours, particularly aircraft that are entirely the wrong version for the scheme they wear, and the number of P-40s with interesting histories of their own masquerading as AVG aircraft, I feel it's a reasonable case. However for those who like their history in headline-only form, nothing but the AVG does.
As to the Eagle Squadrons and the AVG, while I'm no fan of Churchill, he was not a despot, attaining power through an internal war but a democratically elected leader trying to prevent 'a new dark age'. Here was a major difference between signing up to fight for the support of the last democracy in Europe and a successful warlord in China, however much Chiang Kai-shek may have been the best bet in a bad mess.
But I'd agree with the Ober that (some) fighter pilots can be less than discriminating as to who they sign up to fight with. The reverence paid here by many to those who put themselves in harms way can extend too widely. There are some who are keen just to fight, or to fly, and aren't to picky as to who and why - and this can include some of the best aces - Screwball Bearling being an example of a fighter beyond sense. (For the sensitive to any 'attack' on the greatest generation, this is just an acknowledgement that not every pilot's motives were as pure as some might wish to believe, however much the majority were doing a nasty job bravely and as well as they could.)
It is great that the the P-40 is being restored in numbers that show its importance in the history of W.W.II, rather than being such an 'also ran' in preserved warbird numbers, which is why, I suggest, that the over-representation of AVG schemes on P-40s is a redoubled pity; not only are they not going to be forgotten, the reverence paid to them is obscuring many other, no less worthy, units and operators. I was very disappointed to hear of another early P-40 under restoration that rather than painting in it's own, interesting historic scheme was going to be another draped with the AVG colours. (And a special prize to the Flying Heritage Collection with a long-term 'temporary' AVG schemed P-40.) It is a pity that so many owners want the same old thing. Thanks to those (like the Paul family, the recent prizewinner in N African colours at Oshkosh) who've rung the changes.
Just a few thoughts, YMMV.
Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:14 am
I really hope the Duxford Pearl harbor P-40B isn't painted in AVG markings! 
That would be a crime! 
I'd really like to see more P-40's in 49th FG markings. The AVG was not first to combat in a P-40 and their claims are overstated. A great peice of history the AVG was, but it was not the only great P-40 unit and not first either.
That would be a crime!
I'd really like to see more P-40's in 49th FG markings. The AVG was not first to combat in a P-40 and their claims are overstated. A great peice of history the AVG was, but it was not the only great P-40 unit and not first either.
Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:48 am
Well said JDK and Nathan. I suppose those were the main points I was trying to get across. Unfortunately, I am not so eloquent or tactful.
Back to work now........
Back to work now........
Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:25 am
Back to the original subject of this thread, airworthy P-40 list is now updated with a new P-40E!
Hang the expense, we await with great anticipation the pics
Ben
Hang the expense, we await with great anticipation the pics
Ben
Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:51 am
G'day BenG,
Noticed your edit in post #2.
Found this on the Warbirdz Forum:
http://www.cairns.com.au/article/2009/0 ... -news.html
Bent after undercarriage collapse.
Once again. Nice paint scheme, but not accurate for this combat veteran airframe with an interesting history, although it can be argued that it is largely a "replica". This id came from the wreck of 42-104977 that Joel Thorvaldson was shotdown in near Lae. He spent nine days in the bush and rafting down the Ramu River dodging crocodiles before being rescued. A pretty amazing story. Would have been nice to repaint the aeroplane in his honour.
Noticed your edit in post #2.
DOWN FOR REPAIRS
P-40N 42-104977 Mike Spaulding VH-MIK - Mareeba (AUS)
Found this on the Warbirdz Forum:
http://www.cairns.com.au/article/2009/0 ... -news.html
Bent after undercarriage collapse.
Once again. Nice paint scheme, but not accurate for this combat veteran airframe with an interesting history, although it can be argued that it is largely a "replica". This id came from the wreck of 42-104977 that Joel Thorvaldson was shotdown in near Lae. He spent nine days in the bush and rafting down the Ramu River dodging crocodiles before being rescued. A pretty amazing story. Would have been nice to repaint the aeroplane in his honour.
Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:31 am
MightyAuster, I was not aware of that history re the Mareeba P-40. What a hell of an epic for Thorvaldson. Are you aware of a book or other publication that covers his experiences?
I have to admit I cringed when I first saw the colour scheme of the Spaudling P-40 but this was quickly blotted out by the joy of learning of another successful return to the air.
The focus on the AVG, from where I sit, overshadows the RAF's efforts in the retreat to India. However, the AVG has been so well documented and a lot of the records for the RAF squadrons were lost in the chaos so that's part of it, I reckon.
Would love to see more 49th FG schemes.
I have to admit I cringed when I first saw the colour scheme of the Spaudling P-40 but this was quickly blotted out by the joy of learning of another successful return to the air.
The focus on the AVG, from where I sit, overshadows the RAF's efforts in the retreat to India. However, the AVG has been so well documented and a lot of the records for the RAF squadrons were lost in the chaos so that's part of it, I reckon.
Would love to see more 49th FG schemes.
Sun Aug 30, 2009 6:43 am
Hi Andy, a good start is "Protect and Avenge" by Steve Ferguson and William Pascalis. ISBN 0-88740-750-1.
You can also read about him here http://www.pacificwrecks.com/people/veterans/thorvaldson.html.
There should be more 49th FG P-40s emerging, as there are a number of very interesting rebuilds underway. Time will reveal all.
You can also read about him here http://www.pacificwrecks.com/people/veterans/thorvaldson.html.
There should be more 49th FG P-40s emerging, as there are a number of very interesting rebuilds underway. Time will reveal all.
Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:56 pm
Considering Thorvaldson's air force career, he deserves a flying honour. Three wars ... and then some - incredible.
Thanks MA, I'll hunt down that book. Sounds like the 49th history.
Thanks MA, I'll hunt down that book. Sounds like the 49th history.
Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:48 pm
Welcome back to the forums, Andy.....good to see you getting back into the aviation scene...
Mark
Mark
Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:54 am
Cheers, Mark, seemed like the thing to do. Been doing more reading than posting.
Just got the Flightpath issue featuring Judy Pay's P-40F restoration story AND a great history piece featuring the work of Jack Cook.
Just got the Flightpath issue featuring Judy Pay's P-40F restoration story AND a great history piece featuring the work of Jack Cook.
??
Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:53 pm
That did come out pretty nice. Has did the airplane 
Re: p-40
Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:25 pm
Chuck Giese wrote:hang the expense wrote:Don Brooks p-40 41-5709 by the 26 of august this year.
HtE was correct. Don Brooks' P-40E 41-5709 took to the skies today, 67 years after its last flight. Pictures tomorrow, video soon.
Chuck
OK Chuck, you should be recovered from the trip. Where are the pictures?????????