Warbird Information Exchange

Steves right on the Mustang insurance. If a Mustang is 30K per year, that number sounds like an optimum cost. It does help to go through the Crazy Horse program and flight time in type helps also. If it's a bad year for warbirds then the cost goes thru the roof. The year the guy in England "augured" in the P-63 attempting a vertical roll, our local Mustang owner's insurance went from $40 K to cancelled immediately, and then later it was offered back at $100K per annum. I'm told that all warbirds are insured one way or another through the consortium known as Lloyd's of London.
Some owner's will carry liability only, To protect their estate. Others carry a very high deductible but "self insure" but setting some money aside in their investment portfolio for an emergency fund. If they have an accident , they don't report it to their insuror. I have heard of people collecting an extra engine, prop, radiator, cowlings, in case of an off field emergency, etc. That makes a lot of sense to me as airworthy parts for some aircraft are a lot better investment than the stock market!
Last, you would be surprised how many warbirds out there are flying with no insurance whatsoever!

Well, my thoughts are that these warbirds have too high a price tag for their own good, and that we deserve to pay a high rate if we want to pay 1-2 million for a warplane!

So, that's why I would probably pay for partial coverage. Besides, if you trash a warbird that bad, you probably won't live to tell the tale!

Most insurance companies won't even write the coverage if you under insure. If you did insure an airframe worth 500k for 250k, with a 50k deductible, you would simply guarantee that something as simple as a gear up would cost you your airplane. A good Aero Products Prop can easily cost 50K if you can find one. Add the other costs associated with a gear up and the insurance company will simply deduct the 50k pay you 200k, take the airplane, fix it and sell it for market value, realizing the value that you gave up as a profit.

If you really want to get a good picture of the variables, consider the fact that the A1-E has 3000hp and 6 seats, 5 more potential lives to pay liabilty premimums on. It makes a huge difference in prem cost.

Oh, by the way, the airshow fly bys, you love to see and the formation flights, both not covered without seperate riders and even more prem.

Alas, if you think it couldn't be more onerous, wait till Gary Applebaum (grumman Duck) or one of the Albatross guys weigh in. The insurance companies really love the idea of high HP multi engines on water.

Have Fun!

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Eric

"I spent most of my money on alcohol, women and skyraiders....and the rest of it I just wasted."

Hi Eric;

This statement doesn't make sense to me. Why is it that the insurance company can take your airplane away in an accident? They don't do this with cars.

I am not by any means an insurance expert, however, the language in an aviation policy spells out what % of the insured value constitutes a "total loss", the lower the insured value, obviously, the easier it is to hit that %. and the insurance company retains the ownership of the "salvage".

Really, I think it works the same for most auto policies when a "total loss" is declared or imposed, as the case may be. If the company pays you out for the insured value, they get to keep the wreck. It's just in the case of the normal car policy you are insuring based on a "blue book" value instead of a stated hull value. This only comes into play when the repair cost exceeds a high (or contractually agreed) % of the items value.

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Eric

"I spent most of my money on alcohol, women and skyraiders....and the rest of it I just wasted."

Actually, it *IS* like auto insurance. If you prang your car, and it costs more than 75% of the "book value" to fix, then the insurance co can total loss it, and pay you book value. Only difference is that, in aviation, the value is "agreed value", rather than out of a book. Usually, agreed value is appraised value.

In my view, under insuring ANYTHING is the height of stupidity. Minimum liability limits are so low as to be laughable, and all it takes is one injury or wrongful death suit, and you will lose everything that you own, or will own. If you are too cheap to pay to insure an asset for what it's worth, and to cover your butt in the event of a loss, then you shouldn't own that asset; be it an airplane, a classic car, or whatever. A good personal injury lawyer can make a jury believe criminal negligence on the part of a ham sandwich......

MORAL: READ AND UNDERSTAND YOUR INSURANCE POLICY AND *ALL* THE LIMITATIONS THEREIN!!!!!!! I read every single one of my policies, and one of my agents (for some commercial real estate I own) was shocked when I called him with an involved question regarding a certain loss situation. That little question went all the way to the top levels of Erie, but I had it answered *BEFORE* any loss occurred. The time to ask questions is NOT when someone fell off your plane at an airshow, or slipped off your front porch steps, it's before.

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Regards,

Jase
www.b26marauder.com
"I'm having a BLAST!!" 2007 CAF Wing Staff Conference

RIP Gary Austin..always in our hearts

Thanks Eric:

Sounds like: You buy a plane for 500k, you get 250k coverage. If the plane is declared a total loss, you give up the plane to insurance agency. You take your 250k. I'll just get liability.

The way I figure it, if you wreck a $50K, $100K, $175K,
or million+ dollar warbird and you're still around to talk
about it, either swallow your pride and fix it out of your
own pocket (hopefully you didn't hurt anyone else in the
process) or consider it a total loss and take what you can
get, based upon the insurance coverage you could afford.

Insurance is a lot like fire. The right amount will cook your
food and heat your home. Too much will burn your place down.

Every decision in life is a calculated risk. There is risk in flying, period.
The only variable is how much you have hanging out there should you
survive a crash (If you buy the farm, you obviously won't be around to
argue about it).

If you're filthy rich, and can't deal with your estate having to pay
for your misfortune, pay the $37+K (whatever it is) for full-coverage,
market value Mustang insurance and go play fighter pilot at
airshows and fly-ins.

If you're a semi-average-Joe with dreams and determination (like I am),
consider the ramifications of your decisions in life, and roll with
the punches as they are presented to you!!

Be all that as it may, the decisions I have to make about all this
are simple, as I am single and have no kids. If you are trying
to buy warbird aircraft insurance to cover the interests of your
family/estate should you have an incident significant enough that
you won't be around to argue about it, you may want to join the "if
you can't afford a gold-plated insurance policy, you problably
shouldn't be flying the airplane" club.

I forgot to add that if you wreck an airpalne that
has insurance coverage, if you survive, you as
an owner have precious little to say about it's
disposition. When you wreck an airplane, the
insurance adjuster basically "owns it" until they
determine said disposition.

An insurance adjuster will evaluate what's left
based upon their own criteria, and you will
either get a check for the insured value, or you
will get to "work with" the insurance company
to get it repaired to your satisfaction (what great fun!).

I help recover wrecked general aviation aircraft
on a regular basis, and when the accident
is significant (fatalities), any coverage purchased
by the deceased aircraft owner is generally a moot
point. The lawyers will get involved, the limits of the
policy will be quickly reached, and they'll go after
deep pockets (Textron/Lycoming, Continental,
Cessna, Piper, Bendix, you-name-it). Not to mention
the NTSB/FAA investigation fees (sounds like they are
free but they're not...), wreckage storage fees (while
they argue in court), wreckage disposition fees (scrapping
fees, once the lawyers are all done), environmental
clean-up fees (if you crash in a national forest or whatever).
The list goes on and on!

Bela P. Havasreti

Hey Bela:

Man, well put, that could have been a PhD thesis on insurance. That was awesome.

It's funny there seems to be a "gold plated policy" for those with deep pockets.

That reminds me, Just the other day, I called a reputable prop shop specializing in 123-D-40s. i asked about buying T-6 props, and asked the guy if it's ok to use a shorter-below minimums on an experimental plane. Here's what he said, "heck ya"! "They put these on Ag Cats all the time, and never have problems"! "If I had an experimental plane, I'd do it too"! "Man, those rich guys always want a gold policy on everything, their props have to be perfect"!

So that answers your qusetion, not to offend any doctor or lawyer pilots out there!

Those are kind words, but I don't consider it a PhD thesis
on insurance, just maybe a dash of common sense, and I
acknowledge my way of thinking is not suited for everyone
out there.

If you're worth a bunch of money and you want to protect
your estate/loved ones in the event you "check out", by
all means buy as much coverage as you can afford.

If you live your life by a fairly structured set of rules
like I do, you take responsibility for your own actions
and acknowledge the monetary and moral risks in doing so.

All I'm saying is there is the option of balancing the amount
of insurance coverage you purchase with the way you live
your life, which, as we know, is all-too-short.... and before
you know it, it's game-over anyway!

Hi Bela:

You make a reasonable point, and a very realistic one. When you get into regimentation, discipline, and attention to detail we all pretty much come to the same conclusion. I'd say we come out of a pretty similar mold, anyway.