Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:18 am
Rayjay,
1. Yes, going to try to get the Hagerstown peoples help, will have to see about Ex. H&P people.
2. No, and it will be a very basic "inspection", mostly involving taking lot's of pictures for me to review. I will be doing most of the work (as much as I can) to get it ferry-able. I have a pretty extensive machine shop, no B.S. (But it's all pre-1960, so not all that big a deal to have.)
Dan K,
Kind of, I would plan to go to Manaus, do a very detailed inspection, get all the parts needing to be made as templates, take them to my shop in the US, and go back and do the required repairs to get it eligble for a ferry-pemit, and fly back to the US for a more complete rebuild. (The guy's like Buffalo Airways, Evert Air, and to a somewhat lesser extent, Brooks Fuel, have this down to a near-science.) Will probably stay to do repairs.
Steve, it's 2,100! Get your facts straight, man!
(I also like that quote. 
)
Chris, not very likley. Probably PP-CEG. It was scrapped in '66, so this was it's last year.
Thanks,
Chaz
1. Yes, going to try to get the Hagerstown peoples help, will have to see about Ex. H&P people.
2. No, and it will be a very basic "inspection", mostly involving taking lot's of pictures for me to review. I will be doing most of the work (as much as I can) to get it ferry-able. I have a pretty extensive machine shop, no B.S. (But it's all pre-1960, so not all that big a deal to have.)
Dan K,
Kind of, I would plan to go to Manaus, do a very detailed inspection, get all the parts needing to be made as templates, take them to my shop in the US, and go back and do the required repairs to get it eligble for a ferry-pemit, and fly back to the US for a more complete rebuild. (The guy's like Buffalo Airways, Evert Air, and to a somewhat lesser extent, Brooks Fuel, have this down to a near-science.) Will probably stay to do repairs.
Steve, it's 2,100! Get your facts straight, man!
(I also like that quote. )
Chris, not very likley. Probably PP-CEG. It was scrapped in '66, so this was it's last year.
Thanks,
Chaz
Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:26 am
Hi Chaz,
I have enormous respect for your enthusiasm, but I hate to say you are going to need a bundle of money, and an enormous amount of experienced support to accomplish what you are setting out to do. Just taking the odd piece here and there back to your shop to repair is not going to cut it. I'm not saying it can't be done, but this is an enormous amount of work, and would take a small army of volunteers years to accomplish, by which point the aircraft will probably have been scrapped.
I think the sheet metal work/machining is going to be the least of your problems too... it's the engines, and most importantly the systems that are going to be your biggest headache. If this bird has been sitting for as long as I think it has, you are looking at the better part of a quarter million dollars just to get it ferriable again (overhauled engines, hydraulics, control lines, electrics, control surfaces... this stuff has to be done by licensed shops/personnel, and unlikely to be done for free).
In the long term, it would be far less expensive to have the aircraft dismantled and shipped home than it would be to fly it back under its own steam. It's not like the aircraft needs to fly at the end of the day either. however, even dismantling and shipping will cost a small fortune unless you can convince some kindly air force to do it as a training exercise. You'll need a place to put it, and restore it when you get home too (have you considered where she should go?).
If you are truly serious about this, the first thing you need to do is put together a well-researched recovery and restoration plan, because I doubt many people will throw in their help without believing you've thought this thing through properly. I wish you the best of luck, as I'd love to see this bird saved, but it will never happen without proper planning and a clear vision. I think we all here want to see you succeed though... so please don't let this dampen your enthusiasm to see things through.
All the best,
Richard
I have enormous respect for your enthusiasm, but I hate to say you are going to need a bundle of money, and an enormous amount of experienced support to accomplish what you are setting out to do. Just taking the odd piece here and there back to your shop to repair is not going to cut it. I'm not saying it can't be done, but this is an enormous amount of work, and would take a small army of volunteers years to accomplish, by which point the aircraft will probably have been scrapped.
I think the sheet metal work/machining is going to be the least of your problems too... it's the engines, and most importantly the systems that are going to be your biggest headache. If this bird has been sitting for as long as I think it has, you are looking at the better part of a quarter million dollars just to get it ferriable again (overhauled engines, hydraulics, control lines, electrics, control surfaces... this stuff has to be done by licensed shops/personnel, and unlikely to be done for free).
In the long term, it would be far less expensive to have the aircraft dismantled and shipped home than it would be to fly it back under its own steam. It's not like the aircraft needs to fly at the end of the day either. however, even dismantling and shipping will cost a small fortune unless you can convince some kindly air force to do it as a training exercise. You'll need a place to put it, and restore it when you get home too (have you considered where she should go?).
If you are truly serious about this, the first thing you need to do is put together a well-researched recovery and restoration plan, because I doubt many people will throw in their help without believing you've thought this thing through properly. I wish you the best of luck, as I'd love to see this bird saved, but it will never happen without proper planning and a clear vision. I think we all here want to see you succeed though... so please don't let this dampen your enthusiasm to see things through.
All the best,
Richard
Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:30 am
Richard's advise is the best that I've heard yet!
Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:47 am
I'd agree with Richard, and Rajay,
I'd add structural integrity. If any of the major core structure is shot, it's beyond any cost-viability. As someone once put it if the spar or major stringers need replacing, it's like trying to replace someone's spine while keeping them alive...
Good luck, but as Richard says, you are going to need a big(ger) plan!
RMAllnutt wrote:I think the sheet metal work/machining is going to be the least of your problems too... it's the engines, and most importantly the systems that are going to be your biggest headache.
I'd add structural integrity. If any of the major core structure is shot, it's beyond any cost-viability. As someone once put it if the spar or major stringers need replacing, it's like trying to replace someone's spine while keeping them alive...
Good luck, but as Richard says, you are going to need a big(ger) plan!
Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:27 pm
As stated above, before getting to far into this, you need to go there and see it. That is one very very humid environment that it's been sitting in.
If it's not 40,000 lbs of corrosion (hopefully it's not). Who owns it? How much is going to cost (palms will have to be greased) to get it off the airport and out of the country. Brazil isn't texas, they are very protective of stuff leaving, and of people coming in to work.
Another possibility you might consider is getting one of the Brazilian museums to rescue it.
Good luck with the project!
Mark
If it's not 40,000 lbs of corrosion (hopefully it's not). Who owns it? How much is going to cost (palms will have to be greased) to get it off the airport and out of the country. Brazil isn't texas, they are very protective of stuff leaving, and of people coming in to work.
Another possibility you might consider is getting one of the Brazilian museums to rescue it.
Good luck with the project!
Mark
Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:38 pm
maybe it would be more logical to save the few C-82/C-119's still in the States? Just my $.02 worth!
Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:00 pm
(Just back from an extended weekender)
Chaz, I personally would support the motion of recovery project vs a ferry flight (for pretty-much all the reasons previously stated).
Certainly one possibility is airlifting out the disassembled bits, but would be cost-prohibitive unless you could coordinate as a military exercise (as mentioned). Precedent exists, but you'll have to consider alternative plans as a probability.
Have you investigated water route shipping? Ocean-going ships travel upriver as far as Manaus on a regular basis. Pull up a satellite pic, and you'll see tug & barge traffic, as well as several container ship docks and facilities a relatively short distance to the south and southwest of the airport.
Chaz, I personally would support the motion of recovery project vs a ferry flight (for pretty-much all the reasons previously stated).
Certainly one possibility is airlifting out the disassembled bits, but would be cost-prohibitive unless you could coordinate as a military exercise (as mentioned). Precedent exists, but you'll have to consider alternative plans as a probability.
Have you investigated water route shipping? Ocean-going ships travel upriver as far as Manaus on a regular basis. Pull up a satellite pic, and you'll see tug & barge traffic, as well as several container ship docks and facilities a relatively short distance to the south and southwest of the airport.
Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:46 pm
Just have the USAF claim it as theres' and then get it once it's in the States.
Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:07 pm
Yes, Richard had some very good info.
Hadn't really thought about a barge, kind of forgot the river was there.
Barge travel is cheap, too! I thinks about $0.05-0.10 per ton-mile.
I also plan to get the cert. to rebuild aircraft engines, should be a good thing, that way you also know what's in your engine.
Nathan,
Theres no other Packets not in museums, and only a few C-119's, two owned by Brooks and Everts, respectively. Looking into it, though.
mdwflyer,
A very detailed inspection will be done before buying. I just would like someone to try to see if it's all oviously ruined before I buy a $1,200 plane ticket down there.
A museum in Brazil is supposed to own it. Trying to figure out which one. (Two with the same name.) It's reportedly being sold because the museum is getting rid of all it's extra projects.
Hadn't really thought about a barge, kind of forgot the river was there.
Barge travel is cheap, too! I thinks about $0.05-0.10 per ton-mile.
I also plan to get the cert. to rebuild aircraft engines, should be a good thing, that way you also know what's in your engine.
Nathan,
Theres no other Packets not in museums, and only a few C-119's, two owned by Brooks and Everts, respectively. Looking into it, though.
mdwflyer,
A very detailed inspection will be done before buying. I just would like someone to try to see if it's all oviously ruined before I buy a $1,200 plane ticket down there.
A museum in Brazil is supposed to own it. Trying to figure out which one. (Two with the same name.) It's reportedly being sold because the museum is getting rid of all it's extra projects.
Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:43 am
Chaz Harris wrote:A very detailed inspection will be done before buying. I just would like someone to try to see if it's all oviously ruined before I buy a $1,200 plane ticket down there.
Well then, that means either
You have to trust someone down there to 1) know what they're doing in regard to inspecting it, and 2) to give you an honest and objective evaluation (it'd be a shame to get hooked up with someone who is "helping" the museum unload a piece of junk)
or
Someone ELSE has to spend $1,200 on a plane ticket to go down there on your behalf.
I suppose that the ideal solution would be to find someone who both has technical expertise in aviation/aircraft maintenance AND is already travelling down there on business or vacation anyway AND wouldn't mind spending at least a full day or two looking it over for you. (Dime a dozen, right?)
How far off the beaten path is it? Manuas? I guess that's not too bad.
It's too bad that Embraer is primarily located in São José dos Campos, São Paulo - practically at the other end of Brazil (1,500 nm to the southeast of Manuas - not exactly in the neighborhood.) With their close ties to the US aviation industry (including a licensing partnership with Piper and their own major service center in Nashville) you might be able to find some kind of tech rep or whatever who might be interested in helping out. Maybe there is some other aviation company in Brazil that has ties to the US and is located closer to Manuas....
Some of the other folks have mentioned the possibility of involving someone from our own military in the logisitics of moving the C-82. Maybe it could be useful to involve somebody in "procurement" from NMUSAF and some kind of 3-way trade could be arranged with the Brazilian AF through "official" channels between the museums. Of course, you'd have to come up with something they are interested in having AND with that many fingers in the pie, you might lose control of the project. In any case, it won't be simple of easy.
Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:06 am
Chaz Harris wrote:I also plan to get the cert. to rebuild aircraft engines, should be a good thing, that way you also know what's in your engine.
Which shops have you contacted to teach you R2800's?
Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:02 pm
Chaz Harris wrote:Yes, Richard had some very good info.
Hadn't really thought about a barge, kind of forgot the river was there.
I also plan to get the cert. to rebuild aircraft engines, should be a good thing, that way you also know what's in your engine.
Nathan,
Theres no other Packets not in museums, and only a few C-119's, two owned by Brooks and Everts, respectively. Looking into it, though.
mdwflyer,
A very detailed inspection will be done before buying. I just would like someone to try to see if it's all oviously ruined before I buy a $1,200 plane ticket down there.
A museum in Brazil is supposed to own it. Trying to figure out which one. (Two with the same name.) It's reportedly being sold because the museum is getting rid of all it's extra projects.
With respect to C-119's, I'm unaware of any owned by Brooks, although Everts has at least one. There are these two I photographed in Palmer as well...
Just for your information, and to give you an idea of how hard your project will be... John Reffett, owner of these two C-119's, has been working for nearly 20 years to get one of them airworthy again. He's very close, but it's been a very long, and arduous journey. Perhaps his story might be useful to you, or you could even contact him for advice, as you have assigned yourself a similar task. His website is here... http://www.flyingboxcar.com/ By the way... his story is absolutely fascinating, and well worth a read!
Cheers,
Richard
Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:28 pm
Rajay,
No, I certainly don't want to have someone else pay $1,200 and go down there for me! There is still a lot of piston engine freighters around in that part of the world (or there was a few years ago), I was thinking that if there was someone who lived around there that would be willing to do a BASIC inspection for me, that would be nice. I am going to do a detailed inspection myself before I purchase it. I actually have found someone, Alexander Raff-Lehner, who is going down there anyway that said he would be glad to take some pictures and see what the deal is with it. I don't think a USAF/Brazilian AF deal would work, not a great amount of reason for it anyway.
Richard,
N9027K was bought by Roger in 1996 (Or '94?). N8504Z is the one Everts owns. It's still at PANC though, he hasn't flown it back to his Fairbanks yard yet (He has bought lots of C-54's since then, and I guess he doesn't have the time now to put it back in operation.). I have also read all about John's Boxcars, very interesting. If I do anything I will make sure to contact him, as if for nothing else his mechanic, Lars, also has lots of experiance working on Boxcars. (Or so I hear.
) For repairs, all you need is a A&P cert. from the FAA, and that should be obtainable. (At least more than the $100 an hour to pay some other idiot to do it is. ) I am planning on either putting it in my yard, or the local airstrip (20GA), depending if I take it down to a "pod" and wings, booms, center section, etc., or leave it it (relatively) one piece.
ZRX61,
I just need to get an A&P cert from the FAA to make them happy, to my knowledge. I think there are two R-2800's localy
available to rebuild for hands-on practice. But, an R-2800 is still a 4-stroke engine, runs the same, and rebuilds the same
(for the most part) except for the ring cam, to a 350 V8, 292 inline 6, Mack END673 diesel, or even a Briggs 8HP. The rebuild manuals for these engines seem to be very detailed, and I would not think it would be that hard to get a pretty good engine made, so long as I don't rush and do something retarded, like screw up the valve guides/seats. Now, a "perfect" one, that will take years of experiance, but I think I could do at least as good as the people that did the $120,000 "10-hour-wonder" B-29 R-3350's did.
Obergrafeter,
The USAF hasn't flown a Packet since 1957, I don't think thats very viable option.
JDK,
It was me that said that.
If that structure has very bad corrsion throughout, I might as well just build a brand-new one!
Also, remembering the river is there, I now think a barge would be the best thing for transport.
And again, It might not even be for sale, that still needs to be confirmed. ( It should be by Tuesday. 10/6/09 )
-Chaz
No, I certainly don't want to have someone else pay $1,200 and go down there for me! There is still a lot of piston engine freighters around in that part of the world (or there was a few years ago), I was thinking that if there was someone who lived around there that would be willing to do a BASIC inspection for me, that would be nice. I am going to do a detailed inspection myself before I purchase it. I actually have found someone, Alexander Raff-Lehner, who is going down there anyway that said he would be glad to take some pictures and see what the deal is with it. I don't think a USAF/Brazilian AF deal would work, not a great amount of reason for it anyway.
Richard,
N9027K was bought by Roger in 1996 (Or '94?). N8504Z is the one Everts owns. It's still at PANC though, he hasn't flown it back to his Fairbanks yard yet (He has bought lots of C-54's since then, and I guess he doesn't have the time now to put it back in operation.). I have also read all about John's Boxcars, very interesting. If I do anything I will make sure to contact him, as if for nothing else his mechanic, Lars, also has lots of experiance working on Boxcars. (Or so I hear.
) For repairs, all you need is a A&P cert. from the FAA, and that should be obtainable. (At least more than the $100 an hour to pay some other idiot to do it is. ) I am planning on either putting it in my yard, or the local airstrip (20GA), depending if I take it down to a "pod" and wings, booms, center section, etc., or leave it it (relatively) one piece.
ZRX61,
I just need to get an A&P cert from the FAA to make them happy, to my knowledge. I think there are two R-2800's localy
available to rebuild for hands-on practice. But, an R-2800 is still a 4-stroke engine, runs the same, and rebuilds the same
(for the most part) except for the ring cam, to a 350 V8, 292 inline 6, Mack END673 diesel, or even a Briggs 8HP. The rebuild manuals for these engines seem to be very detailed, and I would not think it would be that hard to get a pretty good engine made, so long as I don't rush and do something retarded, like screw up the valve guides/seats. Now, a "perfect" one, that will take years of experiance, but I think I could do at least as good as the people that did the $120,000 "10-hour-wonder" B-29 R-3350's did.
Obergrafeter,
The USAF hasn't flown a Packet since 1957, I don't think thats very viable option.
JDK,
It was me that said that.
If that structure has very bad corrsion throughout, I might as well just build a brand-new one!
Also, remembering the river is there, I now think a barge would be the best thing for transport.
And again, It might not even be for sale, that still needs to be confirmed. ( It should be by Tuesday. 10/6/09 )
-Chaz
Fri Oct 02, 2009 12:29 am
Chaz Harris wrote:
...Also, remembering the river is there, I now think a barge would be the best thing for transport...
-Chaz
Well, make sure you check out all your shipping options first.
Here's an outfit that offers free quotes on oversized international shipping. At least you'll have a ballpark figure with which to work.
http://www.accordoverseas.com/
Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:33 am
If this move does come to reality, remember that folks moving it, especially if you go with a low bid, may have NO experience in moving aircraft. IIRC, Kermit Weeks' P38 came from way down south, and at some point in shipping, the gorrillas moving it decided it was too big so they chopped the booms with a chop saw so it would fit!!!!! 