Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:19 pm
Actually if restored here in the UK Ithink Steve Patterson's figure might be on the low side.
More like about £1.2 million pounds here I reckon.
That's about $2.0 million at current exchange rates. That also assumes you can get suitable Griffon parts.
What do you get for your money? A not very desirable warbird I suspect.
Later
Andy
More like about £1.2 million pounds here I reckon.
That's about $2.0 million at current exchange rates. That also assumes you can get suitable Griffon parts.
What do you get for your money? A not very desirable warbird I suspect.
Later
Andy
Sun Jun 12, 2005 6:59 pm
Andy in Beds wrote:What do you get for your money? A not very desirable warbird I suspect.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there only two in the world that are airworthy right now? I know the cost of the restoration would be great and you could buy a few other desired a/c for that price. Don't get me wrong I still love hearing a Mustang roaring over my head, but what drives crazy and draws me to a show is seeing something I've never seen before! I think the Firefly would be most desirable to see for a lot of people, especially in the UK and Europe. Again correct me if I'm wrong, for the rare birds don't you get a nice little gift when they ask you to come? Does it ever make it worth it? If I had the money and the plane would be feasible to do, I would be looking in to it! It might just be a case of wanting to be the "only kid on the block" to have one. Does anyone know what, if anything, happened with the one at the Lone Star Museum?
Sun Jun 12, 2005 8:18 pm
Like a TBM? You know, some of us "chubby pilots" need a bit of extra space.italian harvard wrote:The firefly always gave me the impression of a "chubby warbird"
Sun Jun 12, 2005 8:32 pm
I'd like someone who really knows it costs 1 million to restore, to cough up a price list to make me believe it. So far my project has been pretty economical to rebuild. Don't tell me "just because it does".
As far as folding wings adding to the hydraulic system, so what those are just extra lines. You know the T-6 hydraulic retraction system is for the most part 4 extra lines that go to the selector valve and actuating cyls. Not rocket science.
As far as folding wings adding to the hydraulic system, so what those are just extra lines. You know the T-6 hydraulic retraction system is for the most part 4 extra lines that go to the selector valve and actuating cyls. Not rocket science.
Sun Jun 12, 2005 8:50 pm
Yeah, but this is a British aircraft, so it's philosophically impossible that the system will be straight forward.
Sun Jun 12, 2005 8:52 pm
Hi Ollie!
Yes, I'll agree with you there. You've got to love the British cars and planes.
Yes, I'll agree with you there. You've got to love the British cars and planes.
Sun Jun 12, 2005 9:46 pm
The Foldings Wings system is sort of like the SB2C or the TBM maybe you should read up before you pop off and make statements you really don't no anything about.
Hi Rob:
So tell us what you know.
Sun Jun 12, 2005 10:11 pm
HarvardIV wrote:I'd like someone who really knows it costs 1 million to restore, to cough up a price list to make me believe it. So far my project has been pretty economical to rebuild. Don't tell me "just because it does".
OK, let me use my Sea Fury for comparison. American Aero spent 20,000 man hours on the restoration. At $40 an hour shop rate (which is a very agressive rate) the labor alone will cost you $800,000. Add to that the engine, prop and other sundry bits and it's easy to see how a million dollars US doesn't take you very far in the warbird world.
Of course you can always do the work yourself. You'll never finish, and it will cost more in the long run, but you can always try and convince yourself otherwise.
Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:10 pm
How does the condition of the Courtesy Firefly compare to the ex-Ethiopian Fireflys currently being restored by avspecs in NZ?
Sun Jun 12, 2005 11:18 pm
Well, I've finally gotten my enthusiasm level high enough to really start hammering on my T-6 to get it finished.
The engine overhaul, the overhauled standard length prop I had to buy, and overhauling the engine accessories will cost me about $40k in cold hard CASH.
Add to this a few thousand $ for radios to be able to fly in southern California and a few more thousand for instrument overhauls. How much are tires and tubes? Imron paint is $200 a quart including hardener! This stuff adds up.
I'm doing a lot of this stuff myself, but I do have a few folks helping. I can only afford to work on the plane on Saturdays. Maybe it will be done in two years (if I don't run out of money)?
My wife reminds me that in the 13 years I have had the project I could have bought a flyable T-6 for the hangar rent I have spent alone. Or maybe bought another house and built up a lot of equity. Maybe I could be wealthy had I not this particular obsession.
I'm probably an idiot, but at the time I couldn't afford a flyer. I thought it would be cheaper to do the restoration myself. WRONG! When I had the time, I didn't have the money, now that I sort of have the money, I don't have any time. I certainly couldn't afford to burn up $20k a month at a professional shop to restore the plane. It all boils down to this being a hobby and a labor of love, not a profit making venture.
I recall a Harvard that had sat in a hangar in Chino for over 25 years. It had been ferried to Chino right after it was surplused by the RCAF. I think the asking price for this completely original plane was about $90k at the time. Reportedly the new owner spent nearly $200k with Pacific Fighters for a museum quality restoration. This was back in the late 80's. All this for an airplane where parts are readily available and the airframe was in fantastic condition.
Maybe I'll get into a cheap Mustang project some day. After all I can't afford a flying one, that's for sure. I'll bet I can save some money by restoring it myself. It should only take what, about 30 years for me to finish it? When will I ever learn?????
The engine overhaul, the overhauled standard length prop I had to buy, and overhauling the engine accessories will cost me about $40k in cold hard CASH.
Add to this a few thousand $ for radios to be able to fly in southern California and a few more thousand for instrument overhauls. How much are tires and tubes? Imron paint is $200 a quart including hardener! This stuff adds up.
I'm doing a lot of this stuff myself, but I do have a few folks helping. I can only afford to work on the plane on Saturdays. Maybe it will be done in two years (if I don't run out of money)?
My wife reminds me that in the 13 years I have had the project I could have bought a flyable T-6 for the hangar rent I have spent alone. Or maybe bought another house and built up a lot of equity. Maybe I could be wealthy had I not this particular obsession.
I'm probably an idiot, but at the time I couldn't afford a flyer. I thought it would be cheaper to do the restoration myself. WRONG! When I had the time, I didn't have the money, now that I sort of have the money, I don't have any time. I certainly couldn't afford to burn up $20k a month at a professional shop to restore the plane. It all boils down to this being a hobby and a labor of love, not a profit making venture.
I recall a Harvard that had sat in a hangar in Chino for over 25 years. It had been ferried to Chino right after it was surplused by the RCAF. I think the asking price for this completely original plane was about $90k at the time. Reportedly the new owner spent nearly $200k with Pacific Fighters for a museum quality restoration. This was back in the late 80's. All this for an airplane where parts are readily available and the airframe was in fantastic condition.
Maybe I'll get into a cheap Mustang project some day. After all I can't afford a flying one, that's for sure. I'll bet I can save some money by restoring it myself. It should only take what, about 30 years for me to finish it? When will I ever learn?????
Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:40 am
My guess on why the Firefly is only $90,000 is that the spars are bad and there is other severe corrosion. The ad says the engine was running up until a few years ago. It would make a nice addition to a museum that likes fighters, as an earlier version was flying before the end of W. W. II. If you could get the engine running, fix the brakes, new plexiglas and tires, new paint. it would make a nice display. You could run the engine, taxi it etc. The sound of any V-12 is a crowd pleaser. There are years of work that an average person could work on like restoring the cockpits etc. Maybe in a few years there will be more expertise on Fireflies and the restoration costs will come down. Or someone will "prang" their example and you could sell it for two or three times what you have invested in it.
The CWH had an example in the 1970's painted gray/ similar to a Sea Fury and it was well like with the warbird pilots at Oshkosh. Unfortunately someone's ego exceeded their flying ability and it was lost doing an aerobatic routine at an airshow at the bottom of a loop.
The CWH had an example in the 1970's painted gray/ similar to a Sea Fury and it was well like with the warbird pilots at Oshkosh. Unfortunately someone's ego exceeded their flying ability and it was lost doing an aerobatic routine at an airshow at the bottom of a loop.
Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:46 pm
Cadillac_of_the_Sky wrote:Andy in Beds wrote:What do you get for your money? A not very desirable warbird I suspect.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there only two in the world that are airworthy right now? I know the cost of the restoration would be great and you could buy a few other desired a/c for that price. Don't get me wrong I still love hearing a Mustang roaring over my head, but what drives crazy and draws me to a show is seeing something I've never seen before! I think the Firefly would be most desirable to see for a lot of people, especially in the UK and Europe. Again correct me if I'm wrong, for the rare birds don't you get a nice little gift when they ask you to come? Does it ever make it worth it? If I had the money and the plane would be feasible to do, I would be looking in to it! It might just be a case of wanting to be the "only kid on the block" to have one. Does anyone know what, if anything, happened with the one at the Lone Star Museum?
..well, I guess that what prompts u to spend so much money on a project is because u like it.. U gotta be Mr. Gates or a darn generous person if u restore a warbird just to please the crowd..
I think the main factors to judge a restoration cost are:
1)the status of the airframe/engine
2)the kind of certification (at least in italy)
3)the amount of work u do by yourself
4)the country u do it in.
5)the cost of materials.
the restoration workshops in the US are a different reality, here we have the mentality of a crew of volunteers working on a plane for free. The quality is the same because of the supervising of an engineer and because there's a selection even in volunteers (and btw only the real chiefies last long enough).
I know a crew chief who is still serving in the Air Force who's rebuilding a plane again after the owner pranged it for two times(and walked away from it!).
Alex
Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:53 pm
bdk wrote:Like a TBM? You know, some of us "chubby pilots" need a bit of extra space.italian harvard wrote:The firefly always gave me the impression of a "chubby warbird"
I'd love a TBM!!! But I'm scared by fuel consumption
Well, maybe I didnt use the proper word, it's not chubby, it's more goofy.. Dont know, to me it just looks ugly!!
Talking about chubby ppl: i'm 1,87m x 100kg, so I'm no Mickey Mouse either.. A friend of mine always say "I think the plane that would suit u would be a P-47!"
Alex
Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:13 pm
Alex,
I agree the any bird requires more investigation, further than just "Do i have the money?" I ment that when I said...
Big ups to the Italians and their restoration volunteers! Send some over here!
Cheers
COTS
I agree the any bird requires more investigation, further than just "Do i have the money?" I ment that when I said...
I didn't elaberate as well as you did. Great points though, thank you!If I had the money and the plane would be feasible to do, I would be looking in to it!
Big ups to the Italians and their restoration volunteers! Send some over here!
Cheers
COTS
Mon Jun 13, 2005 7:15 pm
That last post was not to say we don't have great fine folks over here that are willing to volunteer their time. Big Ups to all of them as well!
COTS
COTS