slightly O/T but anyone know if this is a DC2 or DC3

[brewerjerry]

Hi
Anyone know if this e bay photo is a DC2 or DC3 ?
Seems to have been captured in france in 1940.
Cheers
Jerry

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... 6181629811

[N3Njeff]

Looks like a DC-2, door is on opposite side, also looks like short cowling.

[N3Njeff]

scratch my part on opposite side, thinking DC-3.. think they made the last few DC-2's with the reg 3 tail.

[Raven]

Hi,
I can help here!

Not a DC-2.

It is definitely, categorically, a DC-3 - Not a C-47 / Dakota (of course - the photo was taken too early, going by the British marking style: or military version - but an impressed civil DC-3) and not a DC-2 because all DC-2s had a flat-sided fuselage. The DST (Douglas Sleeper Transport) was a sleeper upgrade of the DC-2, and thus acquired the round section wide fuselage, and that begat the DC-3 family. Quite a few DC-3s had the door on the other side (The print could br reveresed too, of course). The clue would be the little door on the port side of all DC-3s just aft of the cockpit, which you can't see on the print. There was never a round fuselage DC-2.

Have a look on the web for DC-2 pics and you'll quickly see what I mean.

Jeff's not wrong with the short cowling and DC-3 style tail; but they aren't infaliable identifiers! There's at least one DC-3 with the short cowlings preserved in Australia in fact.

HTH

[N3Njeff]

also one thing i am not sure of..........did the DC-2 have fewer cabin windows than the 3???

[Raven]

Ummmm..

~a quick check~

The DC-2 originally had seven cabin windows per side.

The DST has eight on the Starboard side, forward of the door (not port...) and 4 slot type windows above.

DC-3. Gee. Go look! They're not rare!

But as the windows aren't structural, they also aren't much of an ID. And the postwar Dak sometimes had viewmaster panoramic windows fitted.

The DC-2 also had a shorted less pointed wing than the -3. So in the air, it looks a bit 'clipped'. There was of course the DC-2&1/2 which was a -2 fitted with one -3 wing in China.

HTH

[brewerjerry]

Hi All,
Many thanks for the comments ,
I couldn't make my mind up if it was a DC2 or DC3.
Cheers
Jerry

[Mark_Pilkington]

FMHO,

I believe the picture is likely to be of a pre-war commercial airline DC3 with Wright Cyclones hence the short cowlings, the "apparant" right hand door is more an early DC-3 than DC-2 indication, and the round fuselage and DC-3 fin are clearly not DC-2.

There were some USAAC DC-2 derivatives that had both round fuselage and DC-3 fins, the last example remaining being the C-39 at the USAF Museum, but these were rare aircraft in the USA and certainly unlikely to be either disposed of to the RAF by 1940, or operationally be in Europe with the USAAC in 1940?

http://www.wimparmentier.nl/index.html see s/n 2072,

Earlier "flat Fuselage" DC-2's had left hand doors and a small round porthole window, which should be visible in this picture, further ruling out a DC-2. from KLM etc.

"American Airlines" , the first to place orders for the DST, and DC3 required right hand doors to be compatible with the existing Condor aircraft operations that were being replaced, this was picked up by other early US operators, and superceded by later standard use of the left hand door, however this photo does not conclusively rule out the existance of a left hand passenger door? between the 7th window and the roundel in any case?


The negative is not reversed as suggested might be the risk, as the rear parcel door is correctly shown on the left side.

These pre-war commercial airline DC-3's had 7 left hand windows, the reduction to 6 was military change on the C47 to accomodate the twin cargo door, the pre-war commercial airline DC-3's were virtually all short cowl or Wright Cyclone powered, the long cowl or Pratt and Whitney engines again being a military change, the post war "DC-3" we are all familar with are predominately military C47's (or C53's) modified to airline configuration, many having a right hand passenger door fitted in place of the twin cargo door.

It is clearly not a C47 due to the lack of cargo doors, and the fact these were not off the production line in 1940, and first flew in 1942.

I assume its a former RAF aircraft? captured by the advancing German troops in France, and perhaps then either an early DC3 purchased second hand from the USA by the British Purchasing Commission for the RAF in a similar way to the 10 DC-2's were purchased by the BPC from Eastern Airlines were delivered to the RAAF (although I am not aware the BPC did so?), or alternatively one of the European airlines pre-war DC-3's (Pre-war orders for the DC-3 rapidly increased from within the USA and from export customers, with Fokker assembling and selling 63 to European operators including KLM, Swissair, Sabena and Air France.) perhaps even Air France, impressed into RAF service?? for evacuation purpose

regards

Mark Pilkington

[Raven]

Hi Mark,
Thanks for that. Makes my poor effort look short. One minor thought though:

There were some USAAC DC-2 derivatives that had both round fuselage and DC-3 fins, the last example remaining being the C-39 at the USAF Museum

I thought the C-39 was effectively a DC-3 variant. Does it have the DC-2 style wing? At the risk of digging into terific pedantry, while a C-39 might be derived from a DC-2, if it's got most of the bits that made the DC-3/C-47, wouldn't it be sensible to acknowledge that, even if it's not strictly accurate?
Best

[paulmcmillan]

Maybe Sabena OO-AUH C/N 2093 DC-3 which according to the Air Britain Impressments Log after impressment to 24 Sqn in May 1940 was
interned on August 27th 1940 by Vichy France and taken over by
Germans in 1942. Perhaps the photo is from the later period?

[brewerjerry]

Hi All
Many thanks , Sabena OO-AUH C/N 2093 DC-3 , looks like a hot favourite .
Cheers
Jerry

[Mark_Pilkington]

I understand the C-39 was/is still considered a DC-2 derivative rather than a DC-3 Derivative.

I guess the DC-3 at that time in the late 1930's was still considered a DC-2 derivative as well, the "DST" was intended to be an enlarged "DC2" sleeper versiom, the fin and other mods were for handling and performance, the fuselage changes to fit the sleeping berths etc, the "DC3" was the day passenger version if this "improved DC2", the later success of the DC3 has since overshadowed the DC-2, but in the mid 1930's it was the DC-2 that was the most famous and well known of the two types and was the real ground breaking aircraft. - 1934 Air Race, etc

http://www.aarg.com.au/DC2.htm

"The DC-2 was developed from a 1932 TWA Airlines requirement for a replacement for its aging wooden airliners due to the cost of operations and maintenance. TWA’s competitor, United Airlines had ordered Boeing’s 247 Airliner, and locked up production for others until their own needs were met, risking a significant competitive disadvantage to TWA.

Douglas, who had previously only built military aircraft, was keen to secure work for the airlines and responded with the twin engined DC-1, The DC-1 had a design cruise speed of 190 MPH, 30 MPH faster than the Boeing 247 (20% faster), and could carry 14 passengers compared to 10 in the Boeing 247 (40% more load).

As TWA was currently operating trimotor airliners to ensure added safety they demanded demonstration of the DC-1 on single engined performance. A novel demonstration on September 1933 saw the DC-1 depart Arizona's Wimslow airport and cut one engine immediately on takeoff, climb to 8000 feet and cruise to Albuquerque on one engine, arriving there 15 minutes ahead of the TWA Ford Trimotor scheduled flight that had departed Wimslow before it.

TWA immediately ordered twenty DC-2 aircraft which incorporated minor changes to the DC-1 Prototype, before 1934 was over all but one of the major US airlines had the DC-2 on order or in service, and Boeing was unable to sell any further Boeing 247 Aircraft. A total of 198 DC-2 and its military C33 & C39 versions were built before it evolved into the larger "sleeper" DST and DC-3 design as the worlds most successful commercial airliner.

The C33 was a militarised version of the DC-2, 18 were delivered between between May 1936 and January 1937, the C33A, redesignated the C38, was a one off improved C33 with "DC3 tailplane, nacelles and undercarriage.

The C39 was the production version of the C38, 35 were delivered in 1938.

Obviously from the USAF Museum photo, all or the later C39's had rounded fuselages, but perhaps of the original length?

There are major differences between the DC-2 and DC-3, in fuselage shape, width, and length, wing centre-section, wing outer panels, fin, rudder, engines etc.

http://www.aarg.com.au/DC3.htm

"The DC-3 was intended to have 85% commonality with the DC-2, although in the end the DC-3 was quite different and only able to utilise about 10% of the DC-2's components. Differences included a rounded fuselage to create a 66cm wider floor space, 76cm longer fuselage, increased wing span, more powerful 920 HP Wright Cyclone single row 1820 engines, and enlarged fin and rudder to overcome handling problems in the DC-2. The prototype first flew in December 1935 and only 50 DST aircraft entered service before the DC-3 in standard airliner form caused a revolution in the industry, with a DC-3 costing little more to operate than a DC-2, but offering a 50% increase in payload from 14 to 21 seats, it quickly caused the retirement of most other types such as the 10 seat Boeing 247 then still in United Airlines service."

" By December 1941 when the USA entered the war, 500 DC-3's had been built and a further 369 were on order, the USAAC impressed 10% of operational airline aircraft, and requisitioned new airline aircraft direct from the production line, with those aircraft being designated C48, C49, C50, C52 dependant on the source and engine configuration."

The purpose designed military versions were the C53 "Skytrooper" Troop Transport and the C47 "Skytrain" Cargo Transport. "

The C47 had large cargo doors, strengthened metal floor and tie down points, Pratt and Whitney twin row 1830 engines, stronger landing gear and a glider towing cleat, and first flew in January 1942, with an eventual 9,500 being built. C47/Dakota's served in every allied air force, including the RAAF, which operated 124 lend-lease Dakota's (C47's) under its "A65-" number series and recently retired its last examples after 60 years of service. "

hope that clarifies


regards

Mark Pilkington

[Mark_Pilkington]

Raven, how about DC2 1/2 as a compromise,

the C33 was a flat sided DC2 with a DC3 fin/rudder,

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/cargo/c3/c33.htm

The C39 appears to have been a hybrid fuselage with DC2 style flat side? forward and round fuselage rear?? (DC3?) on DC3 Centre Section with DC3 fin/rudder with DC-2 wing Outer Panels.

This creates a deceptive view of the fuselage depending on the angle, in the photo's on the USAF Archive site various impressions of flat and round fuselage shapes can be concluded.

Interestingly the site states:

The C-39 was a mixture of DC-2, DC-3 and military specific parts and assemblies. The plane used a basic DC-2 forward and center fuselage section mated to a DC-3 style aft fuselage and tail. The wing consisted of a DC-3 center section and DC-2 outboard wings. The landing gear was based on the design developed for the Douglas B-18 bomber. Because the C-39 was a essentially a hybrid of DC-2 and DC-3 assemblies it was unofficially known as the DC-2½.

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/cargo/c3/c39.htm



USAF Museum C39

[url][http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/annex/an37.htm[/url]


regards

Mark Pilkington

[paulmcmillan]

The following site (in French) has some history of the 'main suspects'

NOTE: The DOOR on these is ON the LEFT

http://membres.lycos.fr/akerros/avions/dc34.html

A translation which can be understood says:

F-ARQJ "the French State placed order to Fokker of cd.-3-294 (c/n 2122, F-arqi) - Note: TYPO SHOULD BE F-ARQJ with door on the left. This plane was delivered on June 7, 1939 to Air France in Buenos Aires for the network South American and yielded to Argentina in 1941. "
,
And my favourite:

NOTE: Built by FOKKER in HOLLAND with the DOOR ON the LEFT

"Sabena took delivery in December 1938 of two cd.-3-227b (c/n 2093 and 2094, Oo-auh/i) with door on the left. These two apparatuses were briefly used by the 24.Sqdn of the RAF in May 1940, the second being cut down close to Calais on May 23. Restored in Sabena in June to ensure the transfer towards Congo of the Belgian authorities evacuated in non-occupied France, the first was seized by the authorities of Vichy on August 27, 1940 in Algiers and given to Italy. Become MM60520, it was used by the 149° Gruppo, then carried to the Italian civil register like I-emos with the profit of Nucleo Ala Littoria, and finally recovered by Lufthansa in August 1943. It was thus registered D-atzp when the RAF probably recovered it in Flensburg on May 5, 1945... in rather bad condition since it was reinforced on the spot. "

See:

http://216.239.39.104/translate_c?hl=en ... n%26sa%3DN