Do Not give your' trade or skills for free.

[ZRX61]

One of the things I am curious about - particularly as an ex- Warbirds Worldwide writer, a journal keen to emphasise the Industry aspect of the warbird business - is how much voluntary work is there in warbird restoration, maintenance and operation? A hellava lot, and I wonder what a global hours cost est would be if that was paid time - assuming it could / would get paid. Conversely there's a few who earn their entire livelihood from working with warbirds - by and large while it's a dream job, it's a dream job with tricky / low / uncompetitive pay.

Warbirds work pays my bills etc... & the pay is ok...

However... The people who really boil my piss are the guys who take MY work by doing it voluntarily for some owner... & then come to me to borrow MY tools to do the job. Guess what? you ain't getting em........
I rarely let anyone use my tools, sooner or later they will break something, then not even offer to replace whatever it was they broke. Some clown is forever on my sh*tlist for taking a grinder to one of my sockets, rendering it unusable scrap & then had the nads to ask of I had another one..

[mustangdriver]

If people are volunteering to do a job you get paid $30 an hour to do, then you are pretty lucky to start with. I have been to many places where the people that are being paid to be there are far less pleasant that the people that are volunteering to do the exact same job. I do think that you should assess your fee to pay for your manuals. I think sometimes we forget that we are the lucky ones. We come to work every day and work in the industry we enjoy. I am proud to walk up those steps to the tower cab every morning. Could I make more money elsewhere? Sure. Would I be anywhere near as happy? No. They pay me to come and play with aircraft all day. I got a job I love at a time when people are just happy to be working wherever. You can't be mad at volunteers that are thrilled to be working on a warbird, and need some help. That is the community you are in when you get a job in aviation. Now if you are lending all of your tools all of the time, then yes you may want to say something.
This same fight goes on in Volunteer vs. paid fire Dept. as well.

[ZRX61]

You can't be mad at volunteers that are thrilled to be working on a warbird, and need some help.

Sure they're thrilled just to be working on a warbird...(I used to be one of them, but wasn't taking food off someones table) & unlike some *volunteers*, they don't have to actually pay the aircraft owner to let them work on them. In a museum setting you HAVE to have volunteers just to get the job done.. & some museums could use a LOT more of them due to the backlog of projects... a lot of those projects won't ever fly... at least in our lifetimes.

I sometimes find that after the volunteer crew has done whatever is it they did for free we have to go back in, undo the damage they did & do the work again, but correctly... so altho I'm now getting paid to do the work, it's very frustrating having to sort out some halfwits idea of what constituted acceptable work to them. Luckily I had a background in resto/mechs before touching an aircraft so I know what "mechanicial aptitude" is.. Some people just don't have it (& thats not a comment on ALL volunteers, just some of them).. which is why they still work for free... these people should have their toolboxes welded shut


And this brings up a good point:

I have been to many places where the people that are being paid to be there are far less pleasant that the people that are volunteering to do the exact same job.

I think thats down to who is being pressured with deadlines, whose name is going in the logbooks etc & owners not wanting to upset the free help so the volunteers exist in a world with a lot less (or no) responsibility. Anytime some part isn't cooperating I'll go to lunch or work on another part of the aircraft for a while & then go back to it... There's no such thing as a "stuck" fastener which is pretty much the only thing that frustrates me at times (& tool damagers, obviously)

Last edited by ZRX61 on Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[CraigQ]

interesting for sure and a sore spot for A&P's without a doubt. You can invest in a hangar to set up shop in and then watch someone working out of the back of their truck come on the field and take business away. Sadly this happens all over and too often. The issue of giving away free work is a catch 22 between not making money off of a job and being hopeful that the person you helped out will bring business back to you. If you want to make money with your ticket then either work for an airline or go work on automobiles. It's the old adage, if you want to make a million dollars in this business, start with 2 million. Or as mentioned, go work on autos where wages are higher, there is no one who will take away your ability to work if a car you worked on breaks down or is in a fatal accident etc. A&P mechanics are amongst the most underpaid trained professional workers around and shouldn't be expected to give away our services we have spent so much money and time investing in. Helping others out and doing favors for customers and friends is not a problem, it is those, lets call them mooches, who take advantage of mechanics and come to expect free labor who are the problem. A&P mechanics shoulder a tremendous amount of responsibility in everything they do on an aircraft and sign their name & ticket # to. Our lively hood is on the line with every turn of the wrench. Next time a transient pilot drops in looking for a free fix, tell them no problem but you require a MX check flight afterward and see what happens.

[JetStarMech]

Thanks for the responses, they do share many aspects and opinions of what we do as mechanics.
First off I am not "Bitter" as one responder wrote.
I enjoy going to work everyday, it is my passion to go to a place I love to work at.
I've worked other jobs before, fast food (age 15) auto mech (18) U.S. Army (21) Machinist/welder
etc.
By far this is the best job I've ever had!!!
Someone responded that a"Lawyer" takes years of schooling/training to get paid the "BIG" bucks
they make.
I guess this person might be a lawyer and also a aircraft owner.
I would like to add that no one in aviation maintenence just got out of bed one morning and decided
"Hey I want to work on planes" and showed up at a shop and started doing so.
It takes years of training, books, on the job etc., the best mechanics I've worked with have that old
school "Gut" feeling instinct and knowledge when it comes to working on aircraft, they're the best.
Yes the shops that charge $35 to $45 an hour and charge $600 bucks for an annual inspection
do undercut us, and alot of these shops take ONE day to do the annual.
Do you want to fly in that pencil wipped airplane?
But aircraft owners love those places, I've heard them say "What a deal" they must be great mechs
for getting the inspection done so quickly and only $600 bucks...
If an aircraft owner of a P-51, or Spitfire took his plane to a shop and the inspection was done in
one day for $600 bucks, I'de second guess that shop.
As for the maint. manuals, yes we should keep them current, but if I hand a bill to a customer and
one of the line items on his/her bill reads "Tech support/Manuals @ $20.00" I know what the response
would be...
Thanks for the input...

[ZRX61]

I'm not so sure auto mechs are any better off than A&P's.. at least here in SoCal where there is an abundance of *undocumented workers* willing to fix your BMW/Mercedes etc for $7/hr & no bennies.. Same goes for construction work around here...
The aviation aspect of that is a bit different in that instead of the cheap labor coming here to work on the diesel burners, the airlines simply have their aircraft worked on where English isn't the first language.. & I've heard some real horror stories about that.

Back to aircraft:
I still do "freebies" for people... & I have no problem with volunteers working for museums.

[skymstr02]

I don't know about you, but I can perform a 100 hr/annual on a fixed gear Cessna/Piper in a day, and hit everything on the inspection checklist. You can't dilly dally and waste your day on coffee breaks, but it can be done.

[Bill Greenwood]

You resent someone who helps out for free.
When an airline pilot on his day off goes out and does flights for free like Young Eagles, he must be a real sucker.
If you had a restaurant or a grocery store, you must be very resentful of people like the Salvation Army who feed people for free.
I have helped people by the side of the road by giving them a ride or helping change a tire, and MANY TIMES I have also had people give me the same help, and we must have all been suckers as nobody had their hand out for payment.

Could we have an event like EAA Oskosh or Sun N Fun or maybe Reno , if the only people involved were the ones doing it for pay?

Last edited by Bill Greenwood on Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[JohnH]

I see what you are saying. I work in tech support. While we are dealing with a majority of people who don't know anything about our products- it's amazing how many want us to fix or diagnose the problem blind over the phone- when the only solution is they take the product to a local servicer for repair and diagnosis and an estimate, or setup an RA and send it back to us.

[ZRX61]

You resent someone who helps out for free.
When an airline pilot on his day off goes out and does flights for free like Young Eagles, he must be a real sucker.
If you had a restaurant or a grocery store, you must be very resentful of people like the Salvation Army who feed people for free.
I have helped people by the side of the road by giving them a ride or helping change a tire, and MANY TIMES I have also had people give me the same help, and we must have all been suckers as nobody had their hand out for payment.

Who was that aimed at?

[JDK]

Lots of good points!

I sometimes find that after the volunteer crew has done whatever is it they did for free we have to go back in, undo the damage they did & do the work again, but correctly...

The issue there is poor management and training of volunteers. One of the things that makes *my* blood boil to use your earlier phrase is how many organisations treat volunteers as second class citizens and then blame them for shortfalls. That's an organisational, not volunteer problem. It is, I appreciate easy to say, but rather than fighting the crocs, why not drain the swamp?

It takes no less work to employ volunteers properly as it does to use paid staff correctly - and sometimes more. However that is often 'too much' for organisations that regard volunteers as 'free labour' and value them at the price they're paying - stupid. Organisations will pay for a locked-in makeweight but can't be bothered to train or manage volunteer contributions because they might walk, or they can't learn. Yet almost always it's an organisational issue, not a volunteer one.

And another thing - we are all probably aware of the employee who is actually a drain on the organisations workload, yet is locked into that job forever. So not only do they degrade the performance of the team, they are also blocking the place where someone could be a contributor. Shooting's too good for 'em.

Rant over!

[rreis]

I agree, volunteer work is as good has the people coaching it. And these can be paid professionals or other volunteer with a higher degree of expertise on the subject. The work is then, generally, a reflection of the work of those supervising the volunteers.

[ZRX61]

The issue there is poor management and training of volunteers. One of the things that makes *my* blood boil to use your earlier phrase is how many organisations treat volunteers as second class citizens and then blame them for shortfalls. That's an organisational, not volunteer problem. It is, I appreciate easy to say, but rather than fighting the crocs, why not drain the swamp?

Unfortunately, we don't have any control over that, we usually find out after the fact when something needs to be undone, then redone. That dawning moment when you realise "someone has been here before me".

Some museum volunteer set ups are first rate, others not quite so. TFC's is top notch & from what I've seen so is PoF's... & I'm familiar with another one that's downright scary. Can't/won't speak for others..

Last edited by ZRX61 on Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[JetStarMech]

Mr Greenwood
Greetings
I have no problem with volunteer work or helping someone out in need on the side of the road.
You bring this subject up and WHY?
The Young Eagles program is great, helping somebody change a tire on the side of the road
or giving them a ride, great.
These are things that WE as working class people do every day, do you feel that YOU have
done somebody a great service by giving them a ride?
If so you are a saint. God Bless You.
If I might ask how many volunteers are working on your' Spitfire.
This post deals with mechs and with paying our bills and putting food on the table.
Next time that RollsRoyce Merlin sputters, think about it.

[ZRX61]

RollsRoyce Merlin sputters,

Sputters aren't too bad, it's the big sneeze that you want to avoid