Warbird Information Exchange

2 ungrateful pricks - I've had similar situations and I have told folks like this to take their business elsewhere.

I love when assholes like this also say "I don't want to stay the night Heeeree! (with that whiney tone) My normal response was "What makes you think we WANT you to stay here?!?!?

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"If its red or dusty - DON'T TOUCH IT!

I’m no airplane mechanic, but I used to have my primary career as a commercial artist and dealt with various people, including lots of aviation-related clients. The one thing I noticed early on was the more money a person or group had, they were proportionately unlikely to offer to pay for my services. My all-time favorite was the guy who had a fighter plane (details omitted for obvious reasons, DO NOT ask who it was) who came to me. He bragged about how much he’d paid for it, and wanted me to paint a LOT of nose art and other things on it, including more than one A-2 jacket. He actually laughed when I brought up my fee and said, “I heard you like doing stuff like this, why should I pay for it if it’s your hobby?” That guy, I told to leave and never come back.
I no longer do that as my primary source of income (really, I burned out and only do it as a hobby now) but I still do drawings and designs every now and then. What I still hear a lot of is “This will get you a lot of exposure.” I bought into that when I was an art student but not anymore. The bottom line is this: “Free work” only leads to one thing: MORE free work.
Ask any artist, they’ll tell you a similar story. I now reply that I have all the exposure I need in that regard. I still do free jobs for people (all of them for non-profit ventures or friends who have helped me in various ways), but it’s my call to volunteer my services and I’m the one who brings it up. I tell people if I don’t ask them if they want me to do free work, they shouldn’t ask me instead.

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Life member, 91st BG Memorial Association
Owner, 1944 Willys MB #366014
Former REMF (US Army, O3)

Would and should this mercenary policy apply to pilot's also? Like many pilots, I have given numerous rides without charge to mechanics, airshow volunteers, young eagle kids, even controllers at Oshkosh. Maybe I was just naive, and missed out on a chance to make a buck when I gave Nelson a ride at Breckenridge?

I must have been living in a dream world, because a lot of the owners and workers that I have met in 25 years of warbirds seem like nice guys, (maybe they were hoping to sell me something) and not as disgruntled as many of the comments on this topic. Many of these comments come from people who are using an alias, not signing their name or even their location, so it is hard to evaluate what they say. Perhaps they are in a part of the country where tradition or the economy has brought out the worst in people.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Re: cars vs aircraft

To me, they are two very different types of work.


With aircraft, You need a detailed repair plan, lots of specialized (expensive) tools, the skills to work to tolerances of .001, and the ability to understand how all the parts are supposed to work together, especially when engineering drawings are flat out wrong. Small errors can lead to bigger problems that could ultimately kill people. I see very little quality sheet metal repairs nowadays. Lots of hacks that really don’t care about legal repairs or quality workmanship.


With cars, major mods like chopping the top, enlarging wheel wells, and lowering the front end, require just a general idea, basic tools, and some prior experience. Tolerances of .125 are satisfactory because everything gets welded up and hammered into submission. IMO, I wouldn't want a car mechanic crosstraining over to aircraft. He would have to unlearn much of his previous experience, which puts him at a greater disadvantage than someone who has no prior wrenching experience.


I had to retrain my brain when I first started restoring cars. I used to reach for a digital caliper, when all I really needed was a ruler. I used to draw out detailed repairs, but now just rely on previous repair experiences. Working with steel cars is a whole lot easier than aluminum aircraft.


The nice thing about cars, is that I can get 5-8 times more visible work done per day than on aircraft, which is more satisfying. With aircraft, I can spend many hours building a jig, modifying tools, making precise measurements, deciphering blueprints, fabricating parts, consulting with engineers, researching/ordering parts, cutting/fitting blank parts, laying out rivet patterns, drilling, countersinking, riveting, etc. With a car, drill out the spotwelds, remove a crumpled fender, clean up a flange, and weld a new fender in place.

I have to take the opposite position here. I many times did small rush jobs for people when I had my shop. Almost 75% of the time I would get a call within a year from those people , saying they were going to be back in the area and could they schedule work, or an annual, etc.
Not only did I end up getting a lot of good customers but we got a good rep spread far and wide for nothing.
My experience with A-hole pilots has generally been that they are jerks on the first visit because they are expecting to get hosed, especially if they are transients. The mechanical problem has also already caused them to get behind with flying the boss to the next town, etc. Usually it is only after you have gotten them fixed and on their way do they sit back and realize "Hey that guy took good care of us and it was a deal. Let's go back when it's time for an annual."

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All I did was press this red button here...

What if the fender is not available either new or used (let's say you had a Deusenberg)?

"Mercenary Policy" Rather harsh thing to describe a mechanic trying to pay bills and put food on the table!!!
Maybe the next posting should be titled "Mechanics and what aircraft owners think of us, MERCENARIES"

Greetings Gents
I've been called several things during my maintenence carreer, but never a mercenary!?!?!?
At first glance at the word I might think "COOL", being a U.S. Army Soldier that's cool stuff.
NOT REALLY, the dictionary defines it as "ONE MERELY for PAY or GAIN"...
Great, I've only loved this work for 20 plus years only for pay or gain, what next.
My dedication to this work has gone far beyond that.
It's great that one WIX responder has the funds, ability to give rides and do all the other
great things, that's just it, you can do these things and the others like myself cannot.
I would love to be in a place that I can fly aircraft, Piper CUB or a P-51 Mustang and
employ people to maintain my aircraft, then go out and fly them, "GIVE RIDES"...
You should feel Blessed and gifted in your' own way that you can do these things,
and I feel blessed and gifted that I can help you as an Aircraft owner to help you out.
Instead we are MERCS...
You have just given me a whole new perspective/insight of what an owner thinks.
This post was really intended for Mechanics, but thanks for the input.

Post Script
The volunteer thing is great
Have no problem with it, like restoring a historical airframe, one of a kind
aircraft, it's the only one left in the world and it needs restoration, great.
To employ Boy Scouts for a project, Great, EAA members, Great, Etc.
When I'm 65 years old, retired, have nothings else to do except cut the
grass around the house, well that aircraft that I volunteer to work on is
going to get alot of rivets bucked, oh and that lawn, damm the lawn is
getting a little long.
But don't think for a minute that you have a SPITFIRE, MUSTANG ETC.
even if it's the most historical airframe you have ever owned that "I"
as a mechanic should maintain it on the freeby/cheap side.

.......

David, your point carries some weight as you have signed your opinion.

HOWEVER: Consider this, if a pilot who can charge for his skill (commercial) takes an A& P or even just a volunteer for a ride for free, do you think he has no liablity? Some pilots will not do any rides just for this reason. And what is the value of that ride, perhaps $400 in a T-6 or $2000 in a P-51. I don't know of any shops, no matter how skilled or well equipped that charge $2000 per hour. So pilots can and often do donate value for free, and I never heard any pilot regret or expect to be paid for such a favor to any major warbird wrench guy. I wonder if those in this topic who are complaining about giving away a few minutes of their time for free, also follow that same principle and turn down free rides.

All repairs done by A & P s are not signed off in a log book. I think many minor ones are not required to be, and I know for a fact that in practice many are not put in writing. If a guy takes 10 minutes to give an opinion on a problem or perhaps air up a tire, he is not putting anything in a log book. And to go past theory into facts for a moment, how many A &P s lose their license each year for work they sign off? I don't know, but I doubt if it is many.

As for value, some have complained about loaning tools. Of course, anyone should return anything borowed in good shape. But if I was paying perhaps $15,000 for a warbird annual and the A & P could not loan me a $20 wrench, then I'd try to find somewhere else to spend my money. Is it really good business since to tell the customer, in effect, that he is not to be trusted to borrow a tool? If I take my $8000 car to a dealer, I may well even get a loaner, or a ride back home. Aviation could learn some marketing savvy as well as manners.

The original topic does not advocate against doing or signing off the repair, it just says, "not for free". It seems that if there is enough money involved, then all is fine with the originator of this topic.

There may be parts of the country where tradition or the economy has made people conscious of only the almighty dollar. I am glad I don'[t have to live that way , and I know some of the finest warbird mechs in the country who can be polite and still make a living.

I may be missing some truly bad customers, maybe I don't see them. Or it is just that I come from the south, in Texas there is or at least was, as tradition of friendliness that means you don't just view people in terms how much money you can make off them. It may not be that way in big cities in the north. Sort of an aside, I just saw a survey that the happiest people were in Louisiana and the unhappiest in New York. Is there a connection?

And for "{wrenchturner" whoever you are: The topic and title are as stated to not do things "for free" . Those are your words, and they are the policy being advocated by this topic and by many of the posts here. So if money is the only reason for even doing a minor repair or offering a few minutes of advise, then I think it pretty well fits the meaning of mercinery policy, which is to do something only for money. And to be exact, I did not call you anything, I referred to the policy.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Greetings MR Greenwood
If you don't mind me asking
What have you done as a living, doctor,lawyer, buisness owner etc....
In doing so you probably charged ALOT for your' hourly fees...
Considering you own a SPITFIRE...
It sounds like the rides you give somehow make up for all the people
you have stepped on and thier toes...
Please do not preach to me or any other person out here of your'
Great deeds.
Shame on you...
I/ We are trying to make ends meet and once again I'll say this
is the best Damm job I've ever had.
The only thing this thread was to question, was, how can I work on
your' aircraft and be paid and treated like I was at a "jiffy lube""..
Next time you have a problem, call them up...

Bill,
You're paying for the annual to the shop. In most cases, the individual mechanic doesn't get the whole amount that you paid for the service, but the tools are the personal property of the individual. When I was a mechanic at Lone Star Museum, never once did I loan my tools to a transit aircraft owner/pilot. I would repair the aircraft at the direction of my supervisor though, providing that we (LSFM) were qualified, had the proper manuals and technical information, and equipment to satisfy the maintenance regs to comply. But then in that case, I was compensated.

In many cases, owners/pilots are performing undocumented maintenance that is not covered by FAR 43, App A, Preventive Maintenance, leaving the IA who signed the last annual/condition inspection's butt hanging out in the wind, if something goes wrong.

And regarding your automobile, I'll wager that you didn't go into that dealership and borrow a diagnostic computer from the mechs there either, even if you did/did not purchase the auto at that dealer.

Dave Zavoina
A & P/ IA since 1975

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If God had wanted man to fly behind a flat motor, Pratt Whitney would've built one.

There's a fundamental difference between (expected to) offer(ing) professional services for free where you are meant to be earning a living, and sharing a hobby or interest that you pay for (anyway).

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James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

I would have to second that finding. I have not seen many auto mechanics that can really understand how to work on aircraft. They rarely seem to appreciate that you can't just pull over and deal with it at 8,000 ft. There are plenty of A&Ps that might start out that way but they either learn or end up out of the industry.

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"I can't understand it, I cut it twice and it's still too short!" Robert F. Dupre' 1923-2010 Go With God.