Warbird Information Exchange

If you are being "paid and treated like you work at Jiffy Lube" then you have issues with your employer, not the shop's customers. As both an former employee and shop owner I can tell you right now that if you are on your game as a mechanic you will be treated with respect because you have earned it, and as one of the better/best technicians in the shop your income should reflect that. Likewise, there will always be customers that are jerks. But the steady customers that a shop has know who the top wrenches are and treat them with respect, including requesting them by name to be the ones working on their airplanes. Or cars or boats or whatever the case may be.
As an employee I used the fact that customers asked for me by name to request raises (granted) and later leveraged my relationships with the better customers to start a successful shop of my own. A happy customer is like an annuity, you can depend on them to continue to bring you their business year after year. This makes for a good stream of income that the shop can depend on. If you just aren't getting any satisfaction from where you work (either as an employee or shop owner) then you need to seriously reconsider how you are doing things and make changes, either where you work or by going somewhere else.
Being pissed off at Bill Greenwood is silly, As I understand it he didn't call anybody a mercenary, I think he was just pointing out that not everything has to be done for strictly monetary reward. For example, when I had my shop I would have been overjoyed to work on a spitfire and would have done so at a good price because: 1. I would have derived great satisfaction from being allowed to work on one of the world's great airplanes 2. It would have attracted more business and 3. the reputation of my shop would have benefitted. Having a bad attitude towards your customers because they are in better shape than you financially/ have nicer airplanes/ have a prettier girlfriend etc. etc. will only ensure that you will never reach their level of success.
Just my opinion. Everybody has one.

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All I did was press this red button here...

I just want to know if Mr. Greenwood is paying less than 30.00 per hour for work on his spitfire.
How much does your mechanic charge for an annual or condition inspection on that spitfire?
I know what most warbird shops charge for mustang, corsair,p-40, and spitfires.
How would you like to work for 30.00 per hour and have that much responsibility?
Sounds like the old greenwood is back.

It amuses me how a thread that started with the words within it "any comments would help" then turns into a sniping session at one of the few owner/operators that has had the grace to reply to you all.

Bitching about your job is everyones right. It happens in every walk of life. But if you don't sort it yourself, no-one else will. Blaming it on pilots wanting something done free doesn't really cut it. Tell them politely then get on with your day. Manners cost nothing.

Bill has done what the original poster has asked. He has made his comments bsed on how he sees it. Nothing more. If you don't like it, tough. Don't go asking for an opinion if you just want your ego stroking.

The other thing I cannot get my head around is this pecking order based on price. So what if somebody is doing work for $30.00 an hour? If that guy's happy with it, deal with it. His work will show soon enough whether he's cutting corners. Just because somewhere else is more expensive doesn't mean its better - it never has and never will.

You'll just have to accept one day that some people do love their work and don't spend all their free time bitching about what a hard life they have on an internet forum. I'm quite happy travelling a couple of hours from my home to work on a old Avro Shackleton. I do it because I can, and because I love the work. I'd jump at the chance to work on a Spitfire too. I don't care who owns it, or what their occupation is, or how they afford it. If they're kind enough to let me get up close and personal with a living breathing piece of history, that's good enough.

We have a term in the military for people that moan about everything, think everyone is getting a better deal, and that they are having it harder than anyone else, despite working their nuts off (yet nobody actually sees them doing so..)

We call them Oxygen Thieves.... and I think there's a few in here.

Regards,

Richard Woods

(not A&P of any kind, nor disgruntled with his lot.)

"Crystal Lakes", if you call me "old greenwood" , well that is sort of accurate, at least I have stretched middle age. And how much I pay for repairs in my own business. I will tell you that I just had a compression check and plugs cleaned on my Bonanza for $250 total, ie $125 per hour, at the shop in Aspen, which is very high priced, but is local and conveinient for me. There is one down the valley that charges $45 hour, I don't think they are as good.

Enemy Ace, thanks for the good words, that is most of what I was trying to say.
First, I have never advocated that anyone work on my Spitfire for free or even cheap. The shop that services my Spitfire was in the warbird business before I bought my plane. I was introduced to them and have been a customer, probably their main customer, for 25 years. I consider them as friends also. I have had only one or two disputes with them in all that time. You have made my first point, that if the mech is not making enough, taking it out on the customer is not likely to improve things. One of the reasons I go to QG Aviation, besides their expertise and location, is because I like the people. They either like me, my plane, or they put on a good face. By the way, my girlfriend is cute, and nice, but my 1988 car with 160,000 miles may well not be better than what someone else drives, not to mention my 1976 airport car.Don't think it matters, Bernie Madofff probably had nice cars.

The other point I was trying to make, is that doing a small service for free, that is giving a quick opinion or perhaps airing up a low tire, is not only just the normal kind thing to do, but may of course be goodwill and bring in more business.

No one was asking anyone to do an annual or sign off one for free.

I will say one thing for wrenchturner , if he feels this way, it is good to get it out in the open. But he put it on a public forum and asked for comments. I may not be an A & P , but I have been a customer for 50 % longer than he has been in the business, and I have dealt with some of the top A & Ps.

Aviation repairs, especaily warbirds requires customer and mech to cooperate. Trying to play one against the other is like a football team where the center does not like or respect the QB, not too successful.

"Can't we all just get along"

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

.......

That's a cracking offer. If ever I'm in the USA I'll PM you, I'm sure it would be great.

Regards

Ric

How'd ya feel about cleaing oil off airframes etc after a big radial has been run?

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Those who possess real knowledge are rare.

Those who can set that knowledge into motion in the physical world are rarer still.

The few who possess real knowledge and can set it into motion of their own hands are the rarest of all.

.....

I'm not sure whats in it.. but Pledge does a bang up job of removing it & cleaning at the same time when combined with those yellow microfibers they sell at Costco

Sure beats the terry towel/bucket of avgas method...

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Those who possess real knowledge are rare.

Those who can set that knowledge into motion in the physical world are rarer still.

The few who possess real knowledge and can set it into motion of their own hands are the rarest of all.

If I can hear it run, then I'll still have the same idiot grin on my face while I'm cleaning it!



Regards

Ric

Maybe a new view on this subject could help.
I/WE as mechanics don't tell pilots how to fly thier aircraft.
I'm not a pilot but in many ways I know more about what it
takes to make that aircraft fly than the pilot...
So please do not tell us how to do our job or what to charge
for our services,
If you are a doctor or laywer I don't tell you how to do your'
job or what you are going to charge me for your' services...
Mr. Bill has been very active on this post and provided alot
of insight from an aircraft owners point of view, thanks.
Oh buy the way I do not make company policy for charging
a customer for airing a tire, troubleshooting a rough running
engine, that comes from the shop owners, I usually do those
things for free, but my boss feels that we make money on that...

Not strictly true... we certainly tell them how to go run the fresh engine to break in the rings etc...

_________________
Those who possess real knowledge are rare.

Those who can set that knowledge into motion in the physical world are rarer still.

The few who possess real knowledge and can set it into motion of their own hands are the rarest of all.

Maurice Hammond seems to have learned..

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Those who possess real knowledge are rare.

Those who can set that knowledge into motion in the physical world are rarer still.

The few who possess real knowledge and can set it into motion of their own hands are the rarest of all.

Wrenchturner,

Unfortunately, I still fail to see how being an A&P is much different than being any other skilled worker. It takes money, time and dedication to become educated, the tools of the trade are expensive, and there are liabilities that are involved in doing your work. This applies to being a doctor, lawyer, A&P, IT, engineer, architect, nurse, etc. I know at least one of each and I can tell you from experience they all get asked questions and are solicited for "free" advice. Just about anyone who has had to interface with a customer knows they can at times be demanding, rude, wrong, arogant, manipulative, or want somethign for nothing.

I think that fact that you assume that anyone that has enough money to afford to have nice things must have slighted someone or is somehow responsible for you not beign able to afford to do the same tells me a lot about where you are coming from. To be honest I think Bill more than most on this forum is one to have some sympathy for that situation. I for one am not. You chose your career, I didn't. I used to unload truckloads of appliances for $5.25 an hour in cold and rain or 120 degree heat. I felt lucky at the end of the day if the boss didn't ream my back side for taking a 10 minute break that was owed to me by state law. If you you don't like people telling you what they think then my advice is to not solicit feedback on a public forum.

I don't know if it just because I have moved to Colorado and am beginig to breath this thin air, but the fact that I am agreeing with nearly everything Bill has said is really starting to worry me.

Ryan Davis

As it has been said before, Volunteers will always have their place in the warbird industry.

But lets face it, they aren't exactly putting major restoration facilities out of business. When a museum or organization that has volunteers needs something that is complex, they call or go get someone that does it for a living. Without putting down volunteers (I also started as one) whenever I need plugs changed, or something that doesn't require major disassembly to the point that I need someone that knows the little ins-and-outs of doing said procedure, I'll ask some local folks to help out on a weekend. But go and ask your local IA if he'll annual your P-51, spit, Sea fury for free.