Doolittle Raid B-25B Questions?

[rwdfresno]

I came accross some pictures of interest on the http://www.doolittleraider.com website. Most familiar to me but the first one was new to me.

Question #1 Where is this picture actually from? Thirty Seconds over Tokyo?

The image below is itneresting to me for a few reasons. The caption would lead you to believe that this is a picture that was taken on April 18, 1942 of a B-25B taking off from the USS hornet as part of the Doolittle Raid. Something about this picture just doesnt seem right to me. 1. The picture is taken form the perspective that would require the photgrapher to be beyond the bow of the Hornet. 2. The cowlings seem "weird." 3. The aircraft in the picture including those on the deck all seem to have yellow or white cowling rings.



Question #2 Did any of the Doolittle Raider aircraft have colored cowling rings?

There are several examples of photos and video of the Doolittle aircraft in training at Eglin where the aircraft have obviously colored cowling rings however it is hard to find evidence of this in photos of the aircraft actually on the Hornet deck. I have heard several Doolittle Raiders discus this matter and they all don;t agree on this. Some would tell you that some did have the colored rings and others would say none did. Due to this debate John Shaw when he was creating the painting "The Hornet's nest" he and I discussed many times and he ended up carefully placing some colored rings in the painting but very subtely as to almost be a reflection.



Question #3 Did the Doolittle Raider Aircraft have grey under surfaces?

This another topic that many Doolittle Raiders have not agreed on? Again you always see the aircraft depicted as to having the grey undersufaces however looking at many of the pictures you might get the impression that they were painted solid OD.



Question #4 Did Lawson's aircraft No. 7 B-25B 40-2261 ever have "Ruptured Duck" nose art?
Question

Question (actualy group of questions) #5 We know 24 crews trained for hte raid but ohw many aircraft did that include? We know that some aircraft that were not on the raid trained for the mission such as the aircraft below B-25B 40-2266. Did any of the training aircraft go on the raid? Were these aircraft modifed prior similarly to the aircraft on the mission? Is there any serial number list of the training aircraft? Has anyone ever reasearched the operational history of 40-2347 to udnerstand if it was a part of the 17th Bombardment Group and if it could have been one of the training aircraft for the Doolittle Raid?



Any solid infomration regarding these questions would really be interesting to know.

thank youi, Ryan

[RyanShort1]

We've re-hashed that a couple of times over on that forum:

http://doolittleraider.com/forum/viewto ... ?f=40&t=17
http://doolittleraider.com/forum/viewto ... ?f=8&t=188
http://doolittleraider.com/forum/viewto ... =128&t=341
http://doolittleraider.com/forum/viewto ... ?f=3&t=285
http://doolittleraid.com/Research01.htm

I need to update my website with some more stuff, but haven't have enthusiasm to make the time. My flight school students and the L-birds project are currently a higher priority.

Ryan

[RyanShort1]

Here's a stab at some answers for you.

I came accross some pictures of interest on the http://www.doolittleraider.com website. Most familiar to me but the first one was new to me.

Question #1 Where is this picture actually from? Thirty Seconds over Tokyo?

The image below is itneresting to me for a few reasons. The caption would lead you to believe that this is a picture that was taken on April 18, 1942 of a B-25B taking off from the USS hornet as part of the Doolittle Raid. Something about this picture just doesnt seem right to me. 1. The picture is taken form the perspective that would require the photgrapher to be beyond the bow of the Hornet. 2. The cowlings seem "weird." 3. The aircraft in the picture including those on the deck all seem to have yellow or white cowling rings.

See link above. We came to the conclusion it was probably part of the 30 Seconds Over Tokyo filming, if I remember correctly.

Question #2 Did any of the Doolittle Raider aircraft have colored cowling rings?

There are several examples of photos and video of the Doolittle aircraft in training at Eglin where the aircraft have obviously colored cowling rings however it is hard to find evidence of this in photos of the aircraft actually on the Hornet deck. I have heard several Doolittle Raiders discus this matter and they all don;t agree on this. Some would tell you that some did have the colored rings and others would say none did. Due to this debate John Shaw when he was creating the painting "The Hornet's nest" he and I discussed many times and he ended up carefully placing some colored rings in the painting but very subtely as to almost be a reflection.

I think they were all painted out either just before or on board the Hornet... To me, the pictures look like all of the cowls have OD that looks more fresh than the rest of the aircraft's paint.

Question #3 Did the Doolittle Raider Aircraft have grey under surfaces?

This another topic that many Doolittle Raiders have not agreed on? Again you always see the aircraft depicted as to having the grey undersufaces however looking at many of the pictures you might get the impression that they were painted solid OD.

Absolutely. All of the photos I've been able to get my hands on show that they had the standard AAF markings and did have grey undersides - but with a straight blend, not the wavy lines you see on C and D models - and regrettably like a lot of the Doolittle Raid artwork depicts.

Question #4 Did Lawson's aircraft No. 7 B-25B 40-2261 ever have "Ruptured Duck" nose art?

Assuming the men's word is good, yes. We just don't have a picture.

Question (actualy group of questions) #5 We know 24 crews trained for hte raid but ohw many aircraft did that include? We know that some aircraft that were not on the raid trained for the mission such as the aircraft below B-25B 40-2266. Did any of the training aircraft go on the raid? Were these aircraft modifed prior similarly to the aircraft on the mission? Is there any serial number list of the training aircraft? Has anyone ever reasearched the operational history of 40-2347 to udnerstand if it was a part of the 17th Bombardment Group and if it could have been one of the training aircraft for the Doolittle Raid?

All of the aircraft, except possibly Doolittle's aircraft were part of the training. The men trained in the planes they would fly - and those planes were specially modified. I'm more interested in finding out what happened to the aircraft that didn't make the mission - how were they dispersed after their crews left them at Alameda? Good questions...

One other interesting thing is that several of the aircraft appear to have remnants of their War Maneuvers markings still visible or badly covered. Pretty interesting!

Ryan S.

[The Inspector]

Looks like really nice sound stage model work. If you look at the aircraft still on the 'deck', the tips of the verticals are angled back very sharply and it doesn't appear that they were painted a light color. The turret on the aircraft to the right is way too tall and squared off. Just the sort of thing that a studio would do and I'll bet with the encouragement of the USAAF technical advisor, certain things were 'changed' so that the enemy wouldn't pic up on any real technical facts.
And the nose gear strut opening is much larger than the real thing. The main tires look like turned wood, too squared off and flat on the tread area.
Don't blow the 'photoshop' horn as that is a very recent technical computer advancement, in the old days studios made wooden models and 'flew' them past odd looking cloud formations that probably came out of an art dept. airbrush.

[Jiggersfromsphilly]

The weather is too clear in the studio shot and there are no men on the port catwalk. George Gay said that he was up front in that catwalk watching the takeoffs. He pointed himself out in a picture at an airshow at NAS Willow Grove years ago . He was the 3rd person from the front of the flight deck.

[Jerry O'Neill]

The first image is absolutely from the film "Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo". It's a direct freeze frame from the take-off sequence.
Jerry

[Dan K]

The first image is absolutely from the film "Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo". It's a direct freeze frame from the take-off sequence.
Jerry

What Jerry wrote...at about 2:46 of the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LG9z_-N ... L&index=23

[mustangdriver]

As for the Ruptured Duck nose art, several of the men recall it as well as Ellen Lawson. Ellen had many flights in the Ruptured Duck of course no one ever knew as they had snuck her aboard. The story goes that after scraping his tail on take off someone told Lawson that his airplane looked like a ruptured duck. As a gag the next day someone using chalk had drawn Donald duck wearing headsets with the cord wrapped around his neck. And starrs around his head, and crutches under him. Ted and the crew liked it so much that they had someone paint it on with the name 'Ruptured Duck" in yellow under it.

[TonyM]

Information concerning B-25B # 40-2347:

According to Joe Baugher,

The fuselage of B-25B # 40-2347 was recovered in 1966 by Ed Maloney.

In 1989, the fuselage was reported to be in storage at Aero Trader, Chino, CA.

Good Luck with your research.

TonyM.

[Dan Jones]

Information concerning B-25B # 40-2347:

According to Joe Baugher,

The fuselage of B-25B # 40-2347 was recovered in 1966 by Ed Maloney.

In 1989, the fuselage was reported to be in storage at Aero Trader, Chino, CA.

Good Luck with your research.

TonyM.

That's correct. About ten or twelve years ago I was looking over 40-2347 in Aero Trader's storage yard out in the desert. Big project, but nothing they're not used to.

Dan

[Ken]

The most obvious reason the first photo is a still from the movie is the photographer's vantage point. You physically can't be that far out in front of the ship to capture the lip of the flight deck and that much of a B-25 unless you were projected out on some imaginary boom in front of the ship ... or a Hollywood film crew. Plus all the good points already made.

Ken

[rwdfresno]

Ryan S. I appreciate your responses. These are my thoughts.

Answer to Q1: I definitely agree wit hthat assesment.
Answer to Q2: I'd be interested to hear the story regarding why this was done. I wonder if the thought was better camoflage or to obscure the identifyable squadron markings.
Answer to Q3: This I am still curious about as I do not see 100% photgraphic evidence of this. Perhaps the over-painting of the cowlings has obscured this but in many picture it looks as if the bottoms of the aircraft were hastily painted OD as you can see some faint lines. John Shaw had a real issue with this when he painted his Doolittle painting. I recall a couple of conversations with Raiders who swore that the undersides were painted OD. In Shaws painting he decided to paint the undersides in such a way that they could be either reflections fro mthe wet deck or actual gray paint.
Answer to Q5: I would be very interested to one day assemble a complete list of aircraft that were modified.

Ryan

Here's a stab at some answers for you.

I came accross some pictures of interest on the http://www.doolittleraider.com website. Most familiar to me but the first one was new to me.

Question #1 Where is this picture actually from? Thirty Seconds over Tokyo?

The image below is itneresting to me for a few reasons. The caption would lead you to believe that this is a picture that was taken on April 18, 1942 of a B-25B taking off from the USS hornet as part of the Doolittle Raid. Something about this picture just doesnt seem right to me. 1. The picture is taken form the perspective that would require the photgrapher to be beyond the bow of the Hornet. 2. The cowlings seem "weird." 3. The aircraft in the picture including those on the deck all seem to have yellow or white cowling rings.

See link above. We came to the conclusion it was probably part of the 30 Seconds Over Tokyo filming, if I remember correctly.

Question #2 Did any of the Doolittle Raider aircraft have colored cowling rings?

There are several examples of photos and video of the Doolittle aircraft in training at Eglin where the aircraft have obviously colored cowling rings however it is hard to find evidence of this in photos of the aircraft actually on the Hornet deck. I have heard several Doolittle Raiders discus this matter and they all don;t agree on this. Some would tell you that some did have the colored rings and others would say none did. Due to this debate John Shaw when he was creating the painting "The Hornet's nest" he and I discussed many times and he ended up carefully placing some colored rings in the painting but very subtely as to almost be a reflection.

I think they were all painted out either just before or on board the Hornet... To me, the pictures look like all of the cowls have OD that looks more fresh than the rest of the aircraft's paint.

Question #3 Did the Doolittle Raider Aircraft have grey under surfaces?

This another topic that many Doolittle Raiders have not agreed on? Again you always see the aircraft depicted as to having the grey undersufaces however looking at many of the pictures you might get the impression that they were painted solid OD.

Absolutely. All of the photos I've been able to get my hands on show that they had the standard AAF markings and did have grey undersides - but with a straight blend, not the wavy lines you see on C and D models - and regrettably like a lot of the Doolittle Raid artwork depicts.

Question #4 Did Lawson's aircraft No. 7 B-25B 40-2261 ever have "Ruptured Duck" nose art?

Assuming the men's word is good, yes. We just don't have a picture.

Question (actualy group of questions) #5 We know 24 crews trained for hte raid but ohw many aircraft did that include? We know that some aircraft that were not on the raid trained for the mission such as the aircraft below B-25B 40-2266. Did any of the training aircraft go on the raid? Were these aircraft modifed prior similarly to the aircraft on the mission? Is there any serial number list of the training aircraft? Has anyone ever reasearched the operational history of 40-2347 to udnerstand if it was a part of the 17th Bombardment Group and if it could have been one of the training aircraft for the Doolittle Raid?

All of the aircraft, except possibly Doolittle's aircraft were part of the training. The men trained in the planes they would fly - and those planes were specially modified. I'm more interested in finding out what happened to the aircraft that didn't make the mission - how were they dispersed after their crews left them at Alameda? Good questions...

One other interesting thing is that several of the aircraft appear to have remnants of their War Maneuvers markings still visible or badly covered. Pretty interesting!

Ryan S.

[RyanShort1]

The most obvious reason the first photo is a still from the movie is the photographer's vantage point. You physically can't be that far out in front of the ship to capture the lip of the flight deck and that much of a B-25 unless you were projected out on some imaginary boom in front of the ship ... or a Hollywood film crew. Plus all the good points already made.

Ken

There IS a photo really taken during the raid that is similar:



More when I get home.

Ryan

[gary1954]

Looking at the B-25s on the Raiders Website, it is apparent that in the photos of the B-25Bs parked on the deck, that there was a mix of gray painted belly surfaces which are pretty much staight line, and some that were solid OD

[Ken]

Ryan, thanks for posting the takeoff photo - what's the source? I've never seen one from the catwalk like that - most Raid photos are the same-ole ones. Very nice. Surprising to see what looks like sun coming through the clouds - the films and books always made it seem like a more foul day.

Although similar in angle, it's easy to see the photographer is off to the side and not several feet ahead of the ship!