B-17F vs. G cheek windows

[Ken]

In the "Round Trip" thread there was some good discussion on the B-17F seen at the end of the film "Best Years of Our Lives".

Here's my question, the cheek windows on that bird have the late appearance: wedge-shaped front, gun port in the lowest of three small windows. I'm used to seeing cheek windows on a B-17F as flat plexiglas with a ball socket.

So, did some F's get the late model windows as a mod or is there a chance it's a late F ... or very early G with the chin turret removed ... or a Franken-Fort touched up for the film?

Thoughts?

[TonyM]

B-17F had both type of cheek position--early F model had flat cheek window (or no large cheek gun window-just sockets) and late F had the later type cheek window. There are many, many B-17 reference books out there that show the difference.

See: Squadron Signal B-17 in Action
See: B-17 In Detail and Scale

Both of these books show the cheek window evolution on B17 aircraft.

Good luck with your research.

TonyM.

Last edited by TonyM on Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

[gemmer]

Early F models had the same nose and small side window gun locations with .30 gun sockets as on the E model. The side windows were enlarged and beefed up for .50 cal guns at stateside modification depots. Their size and location on each side of the nose usually depended on what depot the aircraft went through. Initially the sockets for the frameless nose remained .30 cal. In some cases they left the plant without any nose gun installations at all. In Europe they were quickly modified for .50 cal. It seems that in the
pacific the .30 cal. nose guns were retained in the F while the E models with the framed nose eventually acquired .50s.
Some F models had their nose and side windows further modified when they got to Europe at the depot or group level. The angular flat type was one variation seen on them. The final version was the splayed out version normally seen on the G model. Early Gs without the cheekguns had them installed in depots or in theater.

Duane

[Second Air Force]

Ken,

Most, but not all, of the Fs with the late style bulged cheeks had the large windows installed opposite to the G. That is, the left cheek emplacement went in the second window area and the right went into the forward location. On the vast majority of Gs the cheek guns were flip-flopped from the F. There were variations, including Gs with only a right window and none on the left (the 447th Bomb Group original aircraft are a good example) and others.

Scott

[Chris Brame]

Would this be one of the variations?

http://www.aerovintage.com/paducah.jpg

(click on it to enlarge)

Hard to tell but I don't see a cheek window on this one - it's the plane that was donated to the Air Scouts in Paducah, KY at the end of the war. Still don't know the serial but maybe this will narrow it down?

[Second Air Force]

I've looked at that photo before and never noticed the cheeks, Chris. It does appear to be without the bulged windows, doesn't it? I'm not really up on the different block numbers and mod status of the three manufacturers, so I'm really going out on a limb here, but could this machine have been slated as a crew trainer from the outset and not fully modified for combat? At some point the cheeks were installed at the factories (I think). Good eye!

I'll have to defer to Scott Thompson and Steve Birdsall on this one....
Scott

[mustangdriver]

Wasn't The XB-40 a converted B-17F? Then after they decided that the XB-40 wasn't going to work, the decided to keep some of the features of it on later F's and then all of the G models. So just because a B-17 has a chin turret, doesn't mean that it is a G model, it could be a late F.This would explain some of the window configurations.

[Greg_in_Ohio]

Al Lloyd reports in the B-17 Detail & Scale book that Bendix chin turrets first appeared on the B-17F-75-DL 42-3504, and cheek guns were added with B-17F-55-BO 42-29467 and B-17F-15-DL 42-3004.

Hope this helps. The book has two official Boeing pictures whose negatives are marked with "Bendix Chin Turret B-17F", and there are no cheek guns on that particular aircraft.

The cheek installations were apparently added to many A/C later, and it may not have been done consistently in terms of the appearance as well, but from the records, it seems that the mere appearance of a chin turret does not a B-17G make.

[Steve Birdsall]

This is the photo that I always bring to discussions like this. Mr. Smith is 42-5958 from the 385th Bomb Group.



Seriously, it's too complicated to cover here but my 1986 Squadron book Fighting Colors: B-17 Flying Fortress in Color answers most if not all of the questions that have been raised.

[rwdfresno]

One other interesting thing that I have noticed in the F-G transition is occasionally you will see G models with the F style plexglass nose bowl. I can think of one picture in particular of the orginal "Nine O Nine" that had the F style nose bowl. Did they come from that factory like this or was this just the clever re-use of old parts to replace broken G model nose bowls after combat damage?

Ryan

[Second Air Force]

One other interesting thing that I have noticed in the F-G transition is occasionally you will see G models with the F style plexglass nose bowl. I can think of one picture in particular of the orginal "Nine O Nine" that had the F style nose bowl. Did they come from that factory like this or was this just the clever re-use of old parts to replace broken G model nose bowls after combat damage?

Ryan

Ryan,

My understanding is that the original chin turret-equipped airplanes had the standard F style nose glazing but that there was interference with the guns when they were elevated to the maximum. If memory serves, the muzzle blast was cracking the plexiglas at times or something of that sort. After a short time the shorter nose bowl was designed and adopted.

Scott

[rwdfresno]

Scott,

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense.

thank you, Ryan

Ryan,

My understanding is that the original chin turret-equipped airplanes had the standard F style nose glazing but that there was interference with the guns when they were elevated to the maximum. If memory serves, the muzzle blast was cracking the plexiglas at times or something of that sort. After a short time the shorter nose bowl was designed and adopted.

Scott