Making Sense of Naval Designations??

Pogo · **Posted:** Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:54 am

I have never understood the Navy aircraft designation system that gives us such things as the TBM, TBD, SBD, SNJ, PB4J-Y or whatever the heck it's called -- I can never remember how that last one goes, and to think I live right down the road from one of the ultra cool and rare birds! Perhaps my memory could improve if I had some understanding of how those strings of letters are arrived at? Thanks, as always; y'all have given me quite an education. :rolleyes:

IndyJen · **Posted:** Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:07 pm

The first letter or two tell you what the plane is used for ...

T=torpedo B=bomber (TBM, TBF)
P=patrol B=boat (PBY, PBM)
F=fighter

etc.

The last letter tells you the manufacturer
F=Grumman (F4F, TBF)
M=Martin (PBM) (I think for some reason "M" was also used for General Motors--as in TBM)
V=Vega/Lockheed (PV1, PV2)

Numbers embedded in the code tell you how many models of that type that particular manufacturer has designed (F4F--the fourth fighter design from Grumman)

Others will now chime in with even more arcane quirks of this nomenclature ... bring it on, boys!

Robbie Roberts · **Posted:** Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:18 pm

I Think that makes "Y" Consolidated, IIRC..., such as PBY-5

Now what about the post number letter- such as "PBY-5A" ? Is that a sub-varient of the designation?

Robbie

IndyJen · **Posted:** Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:32 pm

Well, it seems to me that the dash numbers indicate subsequent stages of development of a particular design ...

Like, for PV (Patrol Vega) types (land-based medium bomber/patrol aircraft, made by Lockheed Vega), we had the PV-1 Ventura, which was followed by the improved PV-2 Harpoon. Arguably the same (albeit slightly enlarged) airframe, certainly the same engines, and this answers the nagging question I had in my head, as to why it's "F4F" and "F6F", but "PV-1" and "PV-2". Clearly, the Navy considered the design leap between the Wildcat and the Hellcat to be much greater than the leap between the Ventura and the Harpoon. But after the war, when the Navy brought out the P2V Neptune, that was a completely new model, hence the number in the middle of the designation.

And the dash 5 model of the PBY Catalina was the one with integral retractable landing gear, instead of separate "beaching" gear that needed to be manually installed before it could be brought ashore. Different from the original, but not different enough to make it a completely new designation.

"Y" is indeed the manufacturer code for "Consolidated"--ref the PB4Y, the Navy's version of the Consolidated Liberator (Patrol Bomber, fourth type from Consolidated).

This stuff sure can get confusing, if one is not of a squiddly nature ...

The Inspector · **Posted:** Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:02 pm

Grumman did build an XF5F prototype. It was a twin with twin tails, a modification of it was the Army XF50 (?) it wasn't viable at the time but was the idea springboard for the F7F Tigercat. So the logical advancement from F4F to F6F and skipping the odd looking XF5F.
One of my all time favorite Navy designators was the MARINES version of the C-119 the R4Q.

ripcord · **Posted:** Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:03 pm

Regarding the "for PV (Patrol Vega) " doesn't the V stand for just Lockheed, as in the TV-2 (I've also seen T2V) Seastar, which was the navalized T-33 or the WV-2 Warning Star (the beautiful Connie)?

The old navy designation system can get confusing, for instance a General Motors Wildcat was the FM-2, and a Goodyear Corsair was designated FG-1D. In high school I was in NJROTC and both of our instructors were airdales, a Commander who flew the WV-2 and a Senior Chief who was aircrew in in PBM-5's during Vietnam. In casual conversation, they both were still pissed (and this was in the late 70's) at Macnamarra for changing what they considered an artform.

IndyJen · **Posted:** Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:23 pm

The "V" came to be associated with Lockheed generally, but it was originally assigned to Vega--Lockheed merged with/acquired Vega after the "V" was assigned. It's my understanding that Lockheed's designator (early days) was "O."

There seems to have been a lot of overlap, and the same letter could mean different manufacturers--"V" also stood for "Vultee," for instance, and other letters were duplicated among multiple manufacturers.

A fairly good rundown of all this is available on this site:

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/we ... _WWII.html

armyjunk2 · **Joined:** Wed May 16, 2007 8:15 pm **Posts:** 833

I hope this helps some, this is a page from Ships and Aircraft of the US Fleet, Victory Edition 1945. i also have the 1962 edition if you want to see it. happy to send the scan if it will make it easier to read.....

bluehawk15 · **Posted:** Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:20 pm

"O" was also the designator for Piper, as in the UO-1, which became the U-11A after the Tri-Service Alignment.

Airlift48 · **Joined:** Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:01 pm **Posts:** 746

First letter R was for transport.

3rd letter:
D was for Douglas
Q was for Fairchild.

DC-3 = C-47= R4D
DC-4= C-54 = R5D
DC-6 = C-118 = R6D
DC-5= C-110 = R3D (Can't figure out this order.)

C-119: R4Q

Obergrafeter · **Posted:** Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:26 pm

Make sense of this one TDR.......................................television guided drone missle manufactured by Interstate! Didn't R as a manufacturer also stand for Ford?

Randy Wilson · **Posted:** Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:50 pm

A long, long time ago ... oh, well, see if this is of any help. Basically, these are some pages and articles about the various designation system, mostly for WWII. Yes, sorry for posting a link to my own site. Shoot me if you must!

http://rwebs.net/avhistory/designations.htm

All the best and fly safe.

Randy

Pogo · **Posted:** Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:51 pm

F for Grumman, V for Lockheed, R for transport ..... DANG, it's so EASY once you understand it, I feel like such an idiot for even asking! :rolleyes:

Chris Brame · **Posted:** Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:15 pm

Quote:

Didn't R as a manufacturer also stand for Ford?

Yes, as in the RR-4 Trimotor (R for transport, R for Ford), but Ford had been out of the aircraft design game for a while before Interstate came in.

And for you Star Wars fans, there was an R2D-1 (DC-2) but no R2D-2! :lol:

JBoyle · **Posted:** Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:43 pm

In some ways it makes sense...it says a lot about the aircraft compared to the Army/USAF system. Mission, Maker, Series. I've never had any problem with it...despite my USAF upbringing.

Of course, they had to be specific...Imagine being at a Navy officers' club in WWII...
"What kind of plane do you fly?"

"F-4"

Trouble is it could be a Wildcat or Corsair..or a few years in the past, a Boeing or Curtiss...a few years in the future, a Douglas or McDonnell.

Then you get two names for the same aircraft:
The Navy called their S-55s HRS...Helicopter Transport Sikorsky
The Marines called them HO4S...Helicopter Observation 4th one from Sikorsky.
Same thing with the Gurmman FF/SF series...

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