Warbird Information Exchange

I've always wondered if the A.A.F. kept track of bomber gunner's aerial scores. You always hear about the "ACES" flying fighters but there had to have been some pretty deadly position gunner's too. You never see anyone recognized for ten kills at top turret position. Any thoughts...

Not exactly true. T/Sgt Art Benko, a Pima Indian, of the 374th BS 308th BG CBI was the top turret gunner on the B-24D "The Goon". He was official credited by HQ 14th AF with 18 kills. He was killed after the Goon was shot down returning from a mission to Hong Kong on Nov. 15, 1943.
He was captured by the Japanese along with his pilot who tortured and CRUIXIFIED them!!

THe crew of the Goon with Benko at his guns

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Don't touch my junk!!

Thanks for the reply Jack. 18 kills, what a record. I'm afraid the fate of T/Sgt. Art Benko is somewhat typical of these gunners. In the end they enjoyed whatever successes the rest of their fellow crew members enjoyed. If you think about it, not to take anything away from all the fighter aces, these position gunners were shooting it out with 99% fighters (fast movers).
Most of the fighter aces had at least a couple of Heinkel's or Betty's on their scoreboards.
Tom

I've heard stories of ace gunners transitioning to fighter pilots. Could be BS... They would have made them take flight school of course. Would that have been allowed?

COTS

a great book that i believe is still available will enlighten you 110 % on the topic of bomber gunner aces..... entitled "aerial gunners : the unknown aces of ww 2" by charles a. watry & duane l. hall. 256 pages w/ pics, stories relating to all bombing missions, gunner stories of all theaters of ww 2. a great read. info as follows..... charles watry 2875 s. nellis blvd., a8-206 las vegas nevada 89121. copyright 1986, library of congress catalog card number 85-91368 isbn 0914379-01-1. i'm sure it's still available in print, if not, & if somebody wants mine i'll sell it. just pm me & we'll work out the details. best tom

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

Can't see how it would possible to accurately document the number of gunner kills, especially on US daylight raids when dozens of guns from different bombers were firing at a particular fighter as it sliced through the bomber boxes... then every gunner claiming 'they' got the same fighter if it was shot down on a pass.

Dave

the guys who wrote the book i mentioned are ww 2 vets, watry a retired fighter pilot colonel, european service, korea, & vietnam. duane l. hall aerial gunner ww 2 also served in the naval reserves. retired as a school teacher. trust me, they did their homework on the book. best tom

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

Interesting topic! Is there any source of information on aerial gunner kills? I'd like to look up the date my "uncle" Bud Seglin shot down a Zero.

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All right, Mister Dorfmann, start pullin'!
Pilot: "Flap switch works hard in down position."
Mechanic: "Flap switch checked OK. Pilot needs more P.T." - Flight report, TB-17G 42-102875 (Hobbs AAF)

You're correct Dave. But, you have to realize that in the CBI up to late 1944 a large raid was maybe 8-12 bombers with a normal raid being 5-6. A few even single ship.

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Don't touch my junk!!

Most of them are pretty shy and retiring about their service. There is one at our airfield, who was radio operator/gunner on a B24, but who was trained on my tail turret, and he hasn't been inclined to offer (and I haven't pushed) him to talk about his experiences. I met one guy who was a gunner on B24's in the 7th AF, and he expressed total disbelief about what I was doing restoring a turret. And he didn't want to talk much about what he did- he was a ball turret gunner, but when a junior guy came along, he took his place on the waist guns.

All in all, a very overlooked bit of history, and many opportunities to do restorations with low investment and minimal space for rehab of any WWII turret. Wish I had more space to work on my turret.

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REMEMBER THE SERGEANT PILOTS!

bottom line.... these gunners / crewmen whether aaf, usn, usmc, uscg were all debriefed upon return from missions, some files / facts have to be buried in some file or archives regarding them defending themselves, their planes, victories, missions etc.

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!