B-17 belly landing question

[PinecastleAAF]

On another forum is someone claiming that Paul Mantz was able to use the brakes on the retracted main gear to control his directional movement during the belly landing for the movie 12 o'clock high.

Is this possible? I know the wheels do stick out some but to me this seems very implausible.

Thanks!

[Jarink1]

I don't know if the brakes would be very useful, but the wheels were designed to stick out to help avoid damage from belly landings.

[Shay]

When belly landing, with all the surface area that is already in contact with the ground causing friction. I'm not sure how much effect braking wheels would have, if any at all. If it did, I can't imagine it's steering effect would be great. But who knows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jfoxq4q4J84&feature=related

Shay
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Semper Fortis

[gary1954]

I used to work with a man named Doug Brown now deceased, who claimed to have worked on a couple of movie projects (Its a Mad Mad Mad Mad World, and 12 O'Oclock High) where Mantz did the stunts. In its a Mad Mad Mad Mad world where the twin Beech is flown through the Billboard, According to Doug, there was a tree on the other side of it that did not appear to be a problem, when Mant flew through the board, he came very close to hitting the tree. According to Doug, after procuring a chain saw, Mantz cut the tree down. In 12 O'Clock High, Doug told me in 1975, that the scene had been set with all of the tents in place, one of the tents lacked a correct wooden tent pole, and someone used a piece of re-bar as a pole. When the B-17 came into the tents, the re-bar penetrated the ship and ended up in the cockpit very close to Mantz. Least that is what he told me anyway.

[yakdriver]

Tallman flew the Beech in Mad Mad World.

[Craig59]

Agree. It was Tallman, not Mantz, who flew the Beech in IAMMMMW. The story of the brakes is related in the Mantz biography, "Hollywood Pilot." Can't speak one way or the other the basis of the claim in fact.

[Matt Gunsch]

The DC-3 was designed that in the event of a belly landing, the wheels would still be in the ground, and there would be braking avialable. During a demo flight, both engines were shut down and feathered with the long blade up, and the plane landed with the gear up on purpose. there was no damage. The B-17 was from the same era.

[K5DH]

I asked one of our VFM B-17 pilots (WIXer "AKFlier") about this today. In a belly landing, the wheels still roll and the brakes still work. It is entirely plausible that the pilot could attempt to use the brakes to make course corrections during the "rollout", although, as another poster pointed out, there is so much other drag from ground contact by other parts of the aircraft that the effectiveness of the attempted steering action would be questionable.

Cheers,
Dean

[Iclo]

According the french owner of a Lockheed Electra (The one who made the trip to South africa for the making of "Amelia) who belly landed few years ago (the gear collapse during the end of the braking in fact), the flight manual handbook confirm that in case "of belly landing, the brakes still working and must be use to control the plane"

[PinecastleAAF]

Thank you for all the responses, interesting stuff for sure. In researching this I came across some youtube footage of the crash of the Phoenix. Very sad. Mantz was an amazing man.

[Shay]

I would tend to think the rudder would give you the most direction control in a belly landing than the brakes idea.

I guess this is another one for Mythbusters to figure out. I wonder which B-17 they'll buy and use.


Shay
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Semper Fortis

[gary1954]

Tallman flew the Beech in Mad Mad World.

Yer right, thanks for jogging my memory, which seems to be failing quite often as of late, and to say I am concerned is putting it mildly. regardless of my memory, I do recall that Doug said that he wasn't happy about almost crashing into the tree

[gary1954]

I would tend to think the rudder would give you the most direction control in a belly landing than the brakes idea.

I guess this is another one for Mythbusters to figure out. I wonder which B-17 they'll buy and use.


Shay
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Semper Fortis

what would the approach speed be of a B-17 for a wheels up landing (since I know nothing about flying a B-17), and as the ship approaches the controlled crash surface, how far above stall speed would she be, and at such a low speed, would the rudder really have that much effect in "control" as opposed to using the brakes (if they work) after contact with the surface?

[Matt Gunsch]

I would tend to think the rudder would give you the most direction control in a belly landing than the brakes idea.

I guess this is another one for Mythbusters to figure out. I wonder which B-17 they'll buy and use.


Shay
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Semper Fortis

once you are on the ground, the rudder is no longer effective, whereas the brakes will work until the plane comes to a stop, and if the pilot is a @ss, he could even set the parking brake.

[Shay]

All good points

Shay
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Semper Fortis