Warbird Information Exchange

Ooooohhh! Nice shot of an L-1 as well! Do you have any more?
I've been through Lamesa, there was also apparently a liaison school there briefly that trained a few Liaison Squadrons.

Ryan

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Aerial Photographer with Red Wing Aerial Photography currently based at KRBD and tailwheel CFI.
Websites: Texas Tailwheel Flight Training, DoolittleRaid.com and Lbirds.com.

The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD. - Prov. 21:31 - Train, Practice, Trust.

Tom, that's a neat photo of the shark mouthed TG4, any idea of the colors involved?? I have not decided what final markings I am doing mine in -there is evidence of blue paint(dope?) on the original fuselage wood structure so I assume the standard blue fuselage with yellow wings and tailplane is the closest to its original paint scheme. It is number 120 (you are correct there Charles - 3 prototypes and 116 production aircraft ahead of it) so I assume that will be the number in white on its side.

I have not been able to find evidence of the radio installation from what I have been able to determine the SCR-585-A is also known the BC-721. I would like to install one back into the glider along with all the peripherals. The only thing holding me back is the weight involved.
This is a photo of the 585-B (mine will be the 585-A model)



BTW Avn-Tech - that's a cool looking L-5 project, have fun with that! - are those the correct original markings on it?

Don't overlook a vintage pith helmet!

Renick,

Yes and no on the L-5 markings.
The circle A, is based on a B-29 tail code (pervious owner flew B-29's in WW II).
I think the yellow stripe is based on the F-86 (korean war).
I also beleive the search and rescue in the photo is original military (poss used for CAP searches).
The nose art is personel, and currently only on one side.
I have evidence it was originally on both side of the cowling (or the neg got reversed).

Incidently, I have three L-5 projects, the one on the web page is the only complete one.
The second one, an L-5E, I have collected most parts except wings.
The third I will be picking up next week in Texas (fuselage & wings for patterns).
I have also just about completed writing an L-5 series parts interchange manual.

If you are interested in anything L-5, contact Jim Gray, President SOPA.
He has the most knowledge and referance on these aircraft I have seen.

Also if you look around at the other pages my friend put togeather, you can see my PT-19 & Yak-52 projects.
I have also rewritten the PT-19 parts manual, and a parts interchange manual.

Laterrrrrr
Avn-Tech

Hi renick,

I am just amazed at the knowledge of the WIXer’s brain trust, not only that the radio is called a “Handie-Taklie” but also how to install it!

As far as the colors of the shark (fish) mouth is concern, your guess is as good as mine.

A note about the aluminum dope TG-4A at Lamase TX, long before the September 12, 1942 order making all trainers NMF or aluminum dope & lacquer AAF ordered the manufactures to finish all trainers to be NMF or aluminum dope/lacquer, all the production Schweizer TG-3As are like this. It looks like your TG-4A was build before this yet unknown date. It may be that yours was also built with a fuselage insignia, ordered by War Department Circular No. 273 of August 18, 1942 since both the ships at Wickenberg and the Popular Science TG-4A below have the fuselage insignia in the same place. The Lamase ship is also missing the U.S. ARMY under the wings which was order deleted for all training types October 11, 1942, but I think the picture is taken months before since by that date all the soaring types of gliders had been replace by modified “Grasshopper” types like the TG-5.

All the TG-4s are missing the tail “radio call number” which General Yount had more than a few memos to AAF HQ about the logic of wasting time to paint the “radio call number” on aircraft that did not have radios, about 5,000 primary trainers!

Here are two color photos from Popular Science sometime after 1 March 1943 when the T.O. was change to bring training aircraft in line with combat types with asymmetrical wing insignia and fuselage insignia, but it still missing the radio call number.





My favorite TG-4 paint scheme is the pre-war scheme with the red center circle on the insignia and full rudder striping, with what I think is one the XTG-4, nice touch with the yellow empennage color sweeping onto the fuselage and the blue sweeping onto the wings.



Best to you all,

Tom Michel

Anybody else note the open rear canopy on the TG-4 in flight. The instructor bale on the student? WTF

Once again Tom, those are some great pictures! Keep them coming, they are answering all sorts of questions I have - pitot and antenna location etc!

The one and only page of plans that I have (paint and markings) calls for the markings shown in that instructor-less(?) airborne photo - I had wondered why some photos I had seen had US ARMY under the wings and yet these drawings did not. I know the date mine was accepted into service (at least into the depot) on May 11 1943 so I guess it should by rights have been silver. As I said earlier there is definite blue colouring to the turtle deck and the wing stubs so I am assuming that mine would have had the fuselage stars and assymetrical wing stars. With a mid 43 date of delivery I wonder if my TG even saw any service at all with the plethora of engineless cub/aeroncas/taylorcrafts in service by then or whether it sat out the war in the Gaird St depot until being sold surplus in April 45?.

a unique project. congrats!! while it wouldn't hurt to get the radium out, i wouldn't worry to much about the radium in the instruments, your tv & microwave oven give off more radiation. just don't handle the instruments bare handed if you remove the bezels or glass & wear a respirator.

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

Hi renick,

Here is a poor photo from some issue of Soaring magazine, probably from the same photo shoot as the Popular Science set since it looks to me that it has the asymmetrical wing star insignia.



I have to agree with you that your ship with such a late delivery date went straight into storage probably with aluminum dope overall for the last TG-4A accident at a glider training field, which looks to me as a joy ride gone horrible wrong, is on April 6, 1943 at Stuttgart AAFld AK assign to the 892nd Twin Engine Flying Training Squadron and probably being held in storage after the glider school had been shut down.

All the best to you,

Tom Michel

Renick,

Can you tell me the difference between the SCR-585-B and the SCR-585-A? I have asked and asked but have not received an answer.

Jack Laister delivered the first of 3 XTG-4 to Wright Field (to Major Dent) at approximately 3 AM on Dec. 4, 1941. Jack drove/trailed the glider from St. Louis, alone, and had strict instructions from Dent to phone him at home even in the middle of the night so Dent could get him onto Wright Field whenever he arrived. The 2nd and 3rd X models were not delivered until about the middle of 1942 and production delivery was after that. None of the photos I have show the vertical stabilizer so I am not sure the number was painted on it. Most USAAF craft had model and serial, sans serif, stencil, painted on port side near pilot. In most instances this was black. The serial on the vertical stabilizer omitted the first digit. 43-53063 was 353063. The TGs may have been different but the CG-4A, 15A, 10A, 13A production gliders (and C-47), so called, tail numbers were painted in yellow which appears to be white on most B&W photos.

Stuttgart glider training was CG-4A (as opposed to soaring gliders which, as mentioned, were there and I agree were recreational) and the last Stuttgart GP class received G wings, graduating 04/14/1943. By this time almost all CG-4A training was being done at South Plains, Lubbock.

BC-721 was the number of the radio (modified BC-611) which was one of the components of the SCR-585. The three main components were the mounting bracket/base FT-295 and control box BC-722 and BC-721. I do not have any idea where the FT-295 was mounted in the TG-4. In one of the Navy TGs it was mounted at the back of the rear seat. In the CG-4A it was mounted at top corner behind the pilot just beyond the hinged nose in the cargo section. Depending on the glider the talk/listen cable and communications cable were different lengths. On the CG-4A the antenna wire ran between the nose lifting tri-pod on top the nose to near the top of the vertical stabilizer. I do not know the difference between the A and B; SCR-585 (x). I do know it was not the cable length.

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Charles Day,
Silent Ones WWII Invasion Glider Test & Experiment CCAAF Wilmington Ohio

Keep the good information coming, folks. I am enjoying this thread immensely. One of these days I'm going to get out to Stuttgart to take photos of the remaining structures and foundations.

Scott

gliderman1, having never actually held either of the 585-A or -B's I am not sure what the difference is between the actual radios. From photos I have seen on the net the big difference in the set up between the -A and -B seems to be where the radio control box and pull to talk switch plug into the mounting bracket (on the end opposite the aerial on the -B and on the bottom on the -A). As for mounting location, according to the TG-4'a pilot's flight operating instructions manual "four dry cells located in the nose of the glider are reached through the radio hatch located on the top surface on front of the winshield" - if you look up a couple of posts to res6kgcr posted pictures, you can just make out the hatch in one of them. As to exactly how it is mounted or in which orientation is anyone's guess.

this might help, I found it the other day:
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id= ... SUPPORTING

As for the restoration:
I have posted more photos of the last 2 days of work to my photobucket album.
http://s76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/r ... 043-53063/
I had it out on the 31st for a bath - the last of the mouse droppings had to go. I got some interesting looks from passers-by as I wheeled the fuselage out of my garage, down the side-walk and into my front yard (the only patch of sunlight I had on my property). The fence was already damaged about 6 weeks ago thanks to a drunk driver (insurance cheque due any day now) but it did make it easy to wheel the glider in.

I then got into the serious tear down. The control cables were removed along with pulleys, bell cranks, guides and anything else available. I photographed the parts before removal, then bagged and tagged them after they were off. Like I said this is my first restoration, so I want to make sure it goes as smoothly as possible...
Today (2nd) the last of the control cables were removed, I then flipped the glider over and started in on the bottom structure and wheel/brake assmbly. By the end of the day the glider was about 30 pounds lighter and a bit closer to its date with the sand blaster...

Renick, I have serial #1516 BC-721-B contract #4267 WF-42, but do not have the base or the 722 or cables or antenna insulators and wire. Also have copied images of serial numbers off the net for same contract #, serials 3106, 4003 and 4645 (all Bs). Have found under contract 1146 WF-42 BC-721-A numbers 32 and 251. I could not get much out of Motorola except that Galvin built around 7,000 SCR-585 ( ) radio systems. I believe that Mitchell (who got the patents in 1947) was the chief engineer of Galvin and he conceived the Handie Talkie and designed it. The WACO spec sheets for the CG-4A call for SCR-585-A. Jack Laister did not recall the TG-4 had a radio, but I found evidence that they were supposed to have them. I have found only three or four WWII GPs who remember a radio system, but several who remember the inter-phone/wire on tow line.

I have approx 12 cockpit photos of different CG-4A gliders including the XPG-1 and a WACO built, crashed, CG-4A at Lubbock and December 1942 and June 1943 Ford production that show the BC-722 control box. Also photos of CG-13A, CG-15A and Navy XLRA showing the BC-722 box, plus a NW production CG-4A photo. Have only one that shows a BC-721 mounted in the FC-295 base. It is a 1942 photo taken at the glider test base. It and all the drawings I have seen show the wire and cable coming out the end of the base as opposed to the bottom. You may be correct on the A and B difference. I have kind of concluded the A was early 1942 (1146 WF-42), low production (say 1,000) and something electrically inside the radio was changed to make it B, thus the B contract #4267 WF-42. What with you saying there were external dry cells, maybe that was the difference?

What else is said about the dry cells? The 721 B had two dry cell batteries internal, not external. That is what became a killer for it in the CG-4As used for training. No one seemed to learn to shut off the power and the batteries were always dead.

Also wanted to tell you the BC-721 weighed around 5 lbs. (I weighed mine about four years ago but my memory could be wrong--at any weight, the base and radio is maybe 10 lbs.

_________________
Charles Day,
Silent Ones WWII Invasion Glider Test & Experiment CCAAF Wilmington Ohio

Both 721A and B's had their own internal battery power, the TG-4 (and I assume atleast the other training glider and cg4) had external batteries to power navigation and instrumentation lights. You can see the 4 cells in the nose of this (I think prototype or at least very early) TG4 and if I'm not mistaken that's Jack Laister in the rear cockpit...



What capacity the batteries are and how long they last is any ones guess. Incidentally I wonder if they were rechargable? Did rechargables exist back then? I can see that getting rather expensive having to replace those batteries after every night flight if they weren't.

Obviously I have not worked out how to post pictures yet......

It's on my photobucket page:

http://s76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/r ... yphoto.jpg