Otay Reservoir SB2C-The recovery operation has begun!!!

[shepsair]

Jesse

Yep, fuselage was loaded onto low loader Sunday and is pn its way to Pensacola.

Wings a currently at the museum - reportedly the wings weighed in at 10000Ib, full or silt and wee to big to get on the lorry?!

They will be dispatched later.

Mark

[tom d. friedman]

i would think that the u.s. navy's current operating war chest in afghanistan & iraq would be a separate entity from maintaining a naval aviation museum & financing recoveries & restorations!! if the navy's budget to fight the wars comes out of the same wallet as the museum's, then there is no wonder why the military is cash strapped.

[Dan K]

I have no interest in beating a dead horse here, so
please lets no rehash the Champlin affair. Trust me,
NNAM wants a TBD as badly as any of us want them
to have one. The reality is someone is needed to
come forward to sponsor it. Just as someone spon-
sored the Helldiver recovery, the Hellcat recovery,
and the two SBDs before that, an outside source of
funding is needed.

The navy has no money for this. They are fighting
one war and supporting another winding down. They
have a lot of sailors to feed. They don't want to see
Olympia scrapped. They have hundreds of worthy
projects. What we need to do is find a sponsor.

I've got no quarrel with you, Owen, although I don't necessarily agree with all points given.

As cash strapped as I am presently, I would be willing to help donate in some small way to the recovery of one of the Devastators at Jaluit except for one point: TIGHAR

TIGHAR's website indicates that the official government entity of Jaluit has declared TIGHAR to be “exclusive manager and agent in all matters relating to the recovery, conservation and exhibition of the deeper of the two Douglas TBD-1 aircraft in Jaluit lagoon. We delegate to TIGHAR full authority to manage the aircraft on our behalf and to work closely with the Historic Preservation Office to assure compliance with the Historic Preservation Laws of the Republic of the Marshall Islands.”

I understand what TIGHAR is about. I understand the "marketing strategy" Mr. Gillespie uses. He is an intelligent man.

But I can't (and won't) donate funds to an organization that claims to be the world's premier organization on historic aircraft recovery, yet has recovered fewer historic aircraft than I have; nor will I encourage any other individual/organization to donate funds to TIGHAR for the purpose of recovery.

This isn't a rant. I stopped getting worked up over TIGHAR years ago. But it would appear that "legal" recovery of the Jaluit TBDs can't go forward without TIGHAR's involvement. Sad.

[JDK]

It's a sad day when you can't get a decent fight out of a pirate!

But seriously, all fair comment Lex.

And here we are today with a successful recovery, which I think we can all agree is A Good Thing'?

Obviously a good thing, James. But I fear that ya'll are missing an important message. It is great that we have had these recent recoveries, but, they are internal Navy recoveries. These recoveries are not private recoveries, Taras is working for NMNA not Joe Q. Public. These aircraft have been brought back into the Navy fold, they retain ownership. When an individual is issued a permit for a private recovery and the individual retains ownership without fear of confiscation, only then, we will have seen real progress on this issue.

True, but not as important, as it depends what you define as 'the issue', I'd strongly suggest. It is a major change for the Navy to go from demanding aircraft to be left where they are to decide to get them recovered; and using a private entity to do that for them is an important footnote, too (much better than what's known the RAF as 'Crash and Smash' type air force teams).

In terms of aviation preservation, the above point is a major step in the right direction and in preserving rare aircraft, rather than some mis-interpretation of archaeological practice the previous organisation peddled. In terms of warbird operation, you are quite right; however I regard warbirds as but one (and not a paramount) element within preservation and display.

But let's hope things are going to progress further, while the tide is now flowing the right way . In the meantime, another Big A$$ Bird in preservation is A Good Thing.

Regards,

P.S. I think the Carb serial was noted in The Boys Big Book of Carb Numbers with Carb Number Spotting Games for All The Family, Macy's 1965.

[Buzzking]

It's a sad day when you can't get a decent fight out of a pirate!

But seriously, all fair comment Lex.

And here we are today with a successful recovery, which I think we can all agree is A Good Thing'?

Obviously a good thing, James. But I fear that ya'll are missing an important message. It is great that we have had these recent recoveries, but, they are internal Navy recoveries. These recoveries are not private recoveries, Taras is working for NMNA not Joe Q. Public. These aircraft have been brought back into the Navy fold, they retain ownership. When an individual is issued a permit for a private recovery and the individual retains ownership without fear of confiscation, only then, we will have seen real progress on this issue.

True, but not as important, as it depends what you define as 'the issue', I'd strongly suggest. It is a major change for the Navy to go from demanding aircraft to be left where they are to decide to get them recovered; and using a private entity to do that for them is an important footnote, too (much better than what's known the RAF as 'Crash and Smash' type air force teams).

In terms of aviation preservation, the above point is a major step in the right direction and in preserving rare aircraft, rather than some mis-interpretation of archaeological practice the previous organisation peddled. In terms of warbird operation, you are quite right; however I regard warbirds as but one (and not a paramount) element within preservation and display.

But let's hope things are going to progress further, while the tide is now flowing the right way . In the meantime, another Big A$$ Bird in preservation is A Good Thing.

Regards,

P.S. I think the Carb serial was noted in The Boys Big Book of Carb Numbers with Carb Number Spotting Games for All The Family, Macy's 1965.

With all do respect Mr. Knightly,

You don't know your facts, Fact 1 is that their is no policy change thing that change was Wendy and Barbra were fired from NHC and the New Boss decide to give back the aircraft recover to Pensacola. Fact 2 is that A&T were hired on a Government Bid that should have been put back out for open bid after the policy was change per GAO Rules. Fact 3 is that no one can go out a recover a sinlge Naval Aircraft with out NHHC send NIS and US Federal Marshal to have a little talk with you. Till that is change it's rather mute how many aircraft are recovered.

Oh and for the record Pensacola has know about this SB2C since the summer of 1992 they just choose not to d anything about because they had the NASM bird on display.

Ask yourself this Sir if John Q public was allowed to do recovery's do you think that the US navy might actually have some of the desired airframe for their collection by now. Maybe they (NHHC) will finally get around to recovering the two Buffalo that are located in the Everglades that they have know about since the mid 80's thanks to the late Harry Doans.

[JDK]

Dear Rob,
It's Kightly, no 'n' and here, JDK, thanks. On the question of names, I've never travelled under any other ID, nor been banned, not assumed other identities. You?

I don't think there's anything to respond to in your 'facts' which are actually a very personal opinion of other's activities. NHHC policy without the distorting glass of Rhorvision can be seen here:

http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/nhcorg12.htm

A couple of Wendy Coble's relevant papers, and other papers relating to relevant Navy unit approaches are presented here:

http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org2-a7.htm

People may do their own research and base their data on firsthand views, starting with these, and others with either a stake or expertise in the topic. I wouldn't advise taking the work of a ambivalent internet 'identity' on any of this (or without support, that of an aviation journalist, for that matter) as I'm sure you'll understand Rob (or 'Buzzking').

The main fact is that a Helldiver has been recovered, against the published position of the previous NHC policy to do so.

While we might want jam on our bread and butter, let's acknowledge a significant achievement.

And while I enjoy the massive improvement in your spelling and grammar, you mean 'moot' not 'mute', which you clearly aren't despite being better advised to try it, given your life ban after multiple warnings by Scott Rose.

You are entitled to your views and opinions. Your previous conduct here means I do not value them, nor wish to enter any discussion with you, although I wish you all the best in your new identity.

Regards,

[Dan Jones]

Well said, James.

[mustangdriver]

I said that there are valid points on both sides, and there are.

For the general public, the navy will not be able to recover all of the aircraft under water, and some of them will no doubt be lost forever. With the current trend Navy aircraft recovered by the Navy will pretty much never be owned by the public, or flown. I agree that it would be great to see some more Navy iron around at airports that are privately owned.

For the Navy, The Navy does have to worry about lawsuits, and they are out to tell the history of Naval Aviation. For as much crap as they get, I challenge you to find a place that tells the complete story of naval Aviation better than the NMNA. I think that they are making strides. I look at it from this standpoint. They just raised a Dauntless, Hellcat, and a Helldiver. The Helldiver fills a hole in the collection and once restored can honor the men that flew and crewed this aircraft. The Dauntless was in storage and then given to another museum. So now a museum that did not have a Dauntless has one on display. People now get to enjoy that aircraft in another location. The Hellcat may stay at the museum since it is combat vet, and one of the others may go to another museum. Serving the same purpose as the Dauntless. So where exactly are they so wrong. Are they allowing them to be flown? No, and I agree it would be sweet to see the non combat vets flown, but at the very least they are able to be enjoyed. I just fail to see where we can say that there is NOTHING to be happy about.
Let's say that tomorrow the navy says OK everyone is free to raise any aircraft they want and do with them what they wish. Do you guys really think there are going to be squadrons of F4U's raised? We may get one or two warbirds, but that is about it. Let's take for example a TBM Avenger(since it was discussed here before). The cost of a restored TBM Avenger is lets say $400,000 using the one listed on Courtesy as an example. That one is fully restored and flying. Now let's figure out the amount it is going to cost to raise, transport, store, and restore one of these TBM's from Lake Michigan or wherever. The cost will exceed what the aircraft is worth. Maybe I am wrong on that, but that is just how I remember reading up on the subject.
Whatever happens I am for what is best for the aircraft. Whichever sees more airframes saved is what I want to see happen. I hope that down the road the NMNA will allow some of the extra airframes they give to other museums to be flown, but I am just happy that they are saved. I wthink that some sort of board should exist made up of NMNA and civilians that have recoveries under their belt and that a rep from them should be present at each recovery even if the navy would allow private recoveries. What is to say some people trying to recover these aircraft might not be doing it right, and we as a whole could end up damaging or even losing historic airframes due to improper techniques.
Sorry for the rant, but I see both sides of the arguement

[shepsair]

Mustangdriver

Very well said.

I am just happy that another airframe has been recovered and will be restored and put on display in a museum as a tribute, period.

All of the other airframes in Lake Michigan are unique but of these I think there is 2 more Dash 2 SBD's that have active combat history. I think everything else were mainly US based airframes or with lesser significant operational history. The F4's are probably the only ones in Lake Michigan of value to a Warbird Operator that would make financial sense. There are no other F4U's or Hellcats in Lake Michigan.

I agree the NMNA is probably one of the premier aircraft museums in the world (Top 5) and the premier Naval one (and that from a Brit that has IWM, Hendon, Duxford and Yeovilton is saying something)!

I think the funds available should be used on those airframes that fill in a missing part Naval history and the TBD is one of those.

So, two SBD's and the Hellcat in 2009 and the Helldiver in 2010. Great recoveries.

regards

Mark

[Mike R.]

Recovery pictures here from local news station...
http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/kswb-p ... otogallery

[RMAllnutt]

For the Navy, The Navy does have to worry about lawsuits...

I believe that the law suit angle is complete baloney... Has the government ever been successfully sued concerning damages from an aircraft crash in which they played absolutely no part? Has a case ever even made it to court involving damages due to a crash of a former military aircraft? I have certainly never heard of such a case, but would be keen to hear of any evidence of such litigation. I have always been under the impression that the government couldn't actually be sued in court, without first actually agreeing to be sued... perhaps one of our resident WIX lawyers could spell this out more clearly.

It seems highly unlikely that the military/government could ever be sued for an aircraft accident solely involving an aircraft once owned by them (other than perhaps one acting under contract to the government, or damaged by a government entity). I could, however, see a manufacturer being sued, but why the government would care about this is beyond me. I honestly don't believe that the law suit angle has any real weight to the argument, and it is more likely mooted in place of something less tangible and harder to explain. While I certainly believe that the Navy should have the pick of what's missing from their collection, I also feel that when they are done with their own recoveries, it should open up to other interested parties. That's just my point of view of course. I am pleased that at least aircraft are being recovered again for preservation. That is a major positive step in the right direction. It's also good that the Navy has chosen a competent team to recover them, considering how many botched attempts we've seen by other parties over the years. I am also thrilled by the idea that the Navy Museum is getting a previously extinct variant of a Helldiver in what appears to be time-capsule condition. It is a major deal, and they are to be heartily congratulated for their perspicacity in going after the recovery.

Richard

[Pat Carry]

Mustangdriver

Very well said.

I am just happy that another airframe has been recovered and will be restored and put on display in a museum as a tribute, period.

All of the other airframes in Lake Michigan are unique but of these I think there is 2 more Dash 2 SBD's that have active combat history. I think everything else were mainly US based airframes or with lesser significant operational history. The F4's are probably the only ones in Lake Michigan of value to a Warbird Operator that would make financial sense. There are no other F4U's or Hellcats in Lake Michigan.

I agree the NMNA is probably one of the premier aircraft museums in the world (Top 5) and the premier Naval one (and that from a Brit that has IWM, Hendon, Duxford and Yeovilton is saying something)!

I think the funds available should be used on those airframes that fill in a missing part Naval history and the TBD is one of those.

So, two SBD's and the Hellcat in 2009 and the Helldiver in 2010. Great recoveries.

regards

Mark

Dont forget about the Corsair in Lake Michigan with a birdcage canopy.

[Pat Carry]

Are there still Lake Michigan Wildcats at the NMNA is storage waiting to be placed in museums?

[PinecastleAAF]

I believe that the law suit angle is complete baloney...

Count me in there regarding the lawsuit angle in the saga.

Firstly my hat is off to the Navy and crew for getting this bird out of the birdbath.

Regarding the navy policy I've never seen anyone ask or address the following question.

Why was it ok for a civilian to salvage an abandoned Navy warbird like this one or Pirate Lex's corsair from say 1946 to 1980ish then the Navy suddenly said no more?

Seemed to coincide with the rise in value if you ask me.

What say you?

[shepsair]

Pat

I hadn't forgotten the Corsair!

I had penned this in for recovery -just when.

I meant any more F4U's

Mark