If you held an "Authentic B-25 Contest"

[Chris Brame]

TB-25N: Any of these around, flying or static that are 1958 time capsules?

Maybe the one from Brainerd, MN: 44-29812 - put on display straight from surplus in 1958 and displayed so you could look inside but not enter. Is it still intact since it was sold?

[rwdfresno]

I have had the opportunity to be around a lot of B-25s over the years and have crawled through or flown in dozens. I believe these are my ranking of aircraft by authenticity. I have listed pros and cons from the perspective of accuracy, certainly not a knock on any of the aircraft, all of which are beautiful, well taken care of, and flying (except for "How Boot That" but it is "flyable" I suppose)

Top 5
1. 44-28925 "How 'Boot That" (pros: documented combat history, Holley carb intakes, Clayton S stacks, markings original to the aircraft, Bendix turret, nearly all factory equipment installed; cons: painted silver not natural aluminium)
2. 43-28059 "Apache Princess" (pros: nearly all factory equipment installed, Holley carb intakes, Clayton S stacks, Bendix turret, paint and markings accurate to documented WWII aircraft; cons: nose art modified to include Kermit's wife's face)
3. 45-8835 "Betty's Dream" (pros: nearly all factory equipment installed, Holley carb intakes, Bendix turret, paint and markings accurate to documented WWII aircraft; cons: collector ring
4. 44-29939 "Briefing Time" (pros:Holley carb intakes, Clayton S stacks, markings of documented WWII aircraft, Bendix turret, significant nearly all factory equipment installed; cons: nueteral gray paint in place of natural metal on underside of the fuselage)
5. 43-4106 "Barbie III" (pros: Holley carb intakes, Clayton S stacks, markings of documented WWII aircraft, Bendix turret, significant amount of factory equipment installed)



Honorable Mention:
44-30748 "Heavenly Body" (pros: significant amount of factory equipment installed, close to accurate documented markings from a WWII aircraft; cons: Martin 250 turret upper half installed, TB-25N forward fuselage seating arrangment; collector ring, Bendix Stromberg carb intake, bomb bay ceiling lowered to accomodate more room for tranfering between forward and rear fuselages)
44-30129 "Wild Cargo" (pros: significant amount of factory equipment installed, full factory stenciling, fairly accurate paint; cons: Martin 250 turret upper half, non-authetic WWII nose art, collector ring, Bendix Stromberg carb intakes)
44-29869 "Miss Mitchell" (pros: Significant amount of factory equipment installed, Bendix turret, markings accurate to documented WWII aircraft; cons: collector ring, Bendix Stromberg carb intakes)

Ryan

[Ken]

All right! Great replies. Although I said "no rules", the contest is for "authentic", so remarks on who flew her or which airshow ... or tramp stamp status don't really enter the equation. This was not a popularity poll.

In fact, many of the comments were paint scheme related, and while accurate paint is important to me, I was actually thinking more about aircraft configuration.

Thanks to b29flteng, Jerry, Chris, and Ryan for the most detailed or on-topic responses so far.

I predicted that How Boot That?, Apache Princess, and Betty's Dream would hover near the top. I also suspected that, as August pointed out, Briefing Time may have been surpassed. Barbie III is a beauty, but I wasn't familiar with her internal fittings.

Three surprises: I was aware of Dog Daize, but am now quite curious to know the history of the museum airframe. I'm equally curious about the Brainerd TB-25. Also, Maid in the Shade and Lynn Hunt were kinda absent from the list? Set us straight, guys!

Finally, is Paul Allen's airplane a secret or do we have details that can be shared?

This is fairly on-topic ... regarding Mitchells with accurate WWII markings, can anyone post photos of the schemes taken during the war?

Here is a link to an amazing color photo of the real Briefing Time. Neat to see the contrast in the anti-glare green and the green used in the camo overspray:

http://www.warwingsart.com/12thAirForce/planes5.html

I know there are photos floating around of Panchito, Barbie III, Dog Daize, etc, and I'd be interested in seeing the others ... actually I'd love to see 'em all posted in this thread A-Z.

Ken

[MKD1966]

I think another honorable mention would have to be John Marshall's "Carol Jean"... Not 100% authentic by any means but John and crewchief Rusty Harper we're doing alot of stuff to make more authentic... Plus I love the dessert sand Camo... Wish someone would do that scheme again...
Mike

[Jerry O'Neill]

Here's the Registry info on Dog Dazie:
http://www.warbirdregistry.org/b25regis ... 34999.html

It was surplused to the Dominican AF and later returned in complete military configuration.
The nose retained all the ammocan trays and supports. Only thing missing when NEAM recovered her from NJ on the 1970's was a top turret, guns and the 75mm cannon.
NEAM located a very rare 75mm airborne cannon and it was decided to display it outside of the aircraft for visitors to view. A dummy barrel was inserted in it's place. Even the NMUSAF doesn't have a "G" or "H" model 75mm airborne B-25 cannon. They only have an experimental auto feed version of the weapon.

It was badly damaged in the 1979 tornado. Rear fuselage was bent, one horizontal and vertical fin was ripped off, and one outer wing was torn from, the aircraft. Most of the airframe was restored by Tom Reilly in exchange for the very heavily damaged Boeing 299Z, a 5-engined B-17 used by P&W for testing the T-34 turboprop. The nose was not transported to Florida because of it's rarity. It was restored on site by Harland Avezzie for Reilly.

Jerry

PS: I also forgot to add it's still in it's single seat configuration and the windscreen still retains the original armor plate. The side armor is also all original and it has the Holley carbs and short stacks.

Last edited by Jerry O'Neill on Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Pogo]

Well, I certainly learned a bunch of new stuff about one of my all time favorite warbirds. Goody!

[FG1D Pilot]

Top 5
1. 44-28925 "How 'Boot That" (pros: documented combat history, Holley carb intakes, Clayton S stacks, markings original to the aircraft, Bendix turret, nearly all factory equipment installed; cons: painted silver not natural aluminium)

Ryan

Something to add: The nose art was painted by the original guy who painted it during WWII with the original paint that he still had. It has the photo album from the pilot who flew her, thereby having the markings and details as accurate as photos allow. Turrets and bomb system all work.

[Ken]

Maybe the one from Brainerd, MN: 44-29812 - put on display straight from surplus in 1958

I don't have the best internet access but I found a snapshot from Brainerd. Still had waist windows and Clayton exhausts. This would be a TB-25J vs. a TB-25N, right? If it truty was untouched after 1958, this could be a treasure chest, uncorrupted by the Hayes mods.

More info, please!

[Lynn Hunt]

I suppose this is one thread I should chime in on. More of a reader than a writer. Also, where's Taigh?? Anyway, I've only seen a couple of the afore mentioned airplanes. I was recently admiring Betty's Dream and taking pictures when Pat wasn't looking. We all need to pay homage at the base of the Carl/Tony alter for they are certainly among the leaders when it comes to authenticity in B-25's. What's more significant to me is they often start with a stripped out TB. I've only seen pics of BT but that airplane set the standard way back before it was even cool to do that. What excites me the most is that in so many cases there is now a move toward authenticity. The battleground seems to be do I give up seats and do I sacrifice performance to lug all of that armament around. Paint will always be an issue. Long after all B-25's have corroded into nothingness and all that is left is a hologram to look at there will still be a$%holes arguing over the color of paint!

I think the only reason I made honorable mention is because of Taigh. My blessing was that my airplane never passed through any civilian hands before I got it. Lots of stuff had been removed but I was way ahead of a lot of guys that tackle a restoration project. Unfortunately for me whatever advantages I may have had initially is more than compensated for by fewer zero's on the end of my restoration budget. For me in several cases the best restoration is no restoration at all. Switch panels, some instruments, most armament is going back in just as it came out.
Still on my pipe dream list: she will fly on Holley Carbs. Also, one little tidbit I discovered was corrosion on the fuselage skin where the side pack 50 cal barrels sat caused by the corrosive gases coming out of the gun. I refuse to grind it off!

As to this thread, smarter folks than me have already chimed in and I trust their assessments. I'd like to hear form Carl.

To all out there who struggle to restore authenticity to any airplane, you have my admiration and undying support.

Oh ya, please help me find an SCR695 IFF for my bomber.

[Dan Newcomb]

Somebody asked about Paul Allen’s B-25. Mr. Allen insists that every new part made for the aircraft are to be stamped with the original part number and that isn’t normally done. Believe me you aren’t going to stamp a part number on every little clip and bracket. All structures are painted the precise color. For instance different parts of the main gear assembly had different shades of green paint. All parts are painted to factory color prior to installation. You don’t see any paint on the rivet heads. The attention to detail that I saw down at Carl’s a couple of years ago blew me away.

[Pat Carry]

Where is the Brainerd B-25 now? What ever happened to the B-25 on display at a water park/amusement park in Florida?

[gary1954]

Miss HAP is my fav. Because she is an early version.

Early Version, I almost Choked on my coffee.......
Early Version, she is the sole surving example of the B-25 being the 4th production model to roll off the assembly line.
In historical value alone as the VIP Transport for General Henry "Hap" Arnold, and being the 4th production model B-25
she should be in the National Museum and N10564 returned to the air.

[gary1954]

Here's the Registry info on Dog Dazie:
http://www.warbirdregistry.org/b25regis ... 34999.html

It was surplused to the Dominican AF and later returned in complete military configuration.
The nose retained all the ammocan trays and supports. Only thing missing when NEAM recovered her from NJ on the 1970's was a top turret, guns and the 75mm cannon.
NEAM located a very rare 75mm airborne cannon and it was decided to display it outside of the aircraft for visitors to view. A dummy barrel was inserted in it's place. Even the NMUSAF doesn't have a "G" or "H" model 75mm airborne B-25 cannon. They only have an experimental auto feed version of the weapon.

It was badly damaged in the 1979 tornado. Rear fuselage was bent, one horizontal and vertical fin was ripped off, and one outer wing was torn from, the aircraft. Most of the airframe was restored by Tom Reilly in exchange for the very heavily damaged Boeing 299Z, a 5-engined B-17 used by P&W for testing the T-34 turboprop. The nose was not transported to Florida because of it's rarity. It was restored on site by Harland Avezzie for Reilly.

Jerry

PS: I also forgot to add it's still in it's single seat configuration and the windscreen still retains the original armor plate. The side armor is also all original and it has the Holley carbs and short stacks.

The Armament Museum at Elgin AFB I believe has a M-4 75mm canon for the B-25 they did in 1983

[bluehawk15]

Thanks for the vote Pogo! The Yellow Rose does have a war-weary look these days, and as far as public appearances goes, she should be at the top end of the list for fly-overs and air shows.

Getting to how authentic she is, Ray Clausen and I have talked about a few things we might look at doing on the exterior, like armor under the pilot's windows and the ADF wire antenna. However, the interior is far from original, and probably never will be. The biggest thing is the bomb bay cover being gone. However, with the "catwalk" across it, it makes for a wonderful flight experience as movement from the nose to the tail can be done easily and quickly.

The Rose will be at Lancaster, TX, on 4 SEP 10 for the DFW Wing's fly-day, and then at Georgetown, TX, on the 25th for their static Air Fest. She will be offering rides at both places. The Rose will also be at the CAF homecoming show, Airsho '10, in Midland on Columbus Day weekend.