North Sea Recoveries

[Shay]

Haven't we already seen recoveries from this region of water in good states of preservation due in part to the colder temps? Any there any EU Orgs or Museum's that would be interstested in recovering ETO combat veteran heavy bombers? By the looks of the picture she's mostly intact.

From D. Sheley original link http://www.flickr.com/photos/18532986@N07/4722203467/sizes/l/

Any educated guesses as the identity of this Flying Fortress? Seems like and "E" on the tail. Lost on or about the 26 July 1943.(larger 4572x3590 viewable above)


Shay
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Semper Fortis

[JDK]

Haven't we already seen recoveries from this region of water in good states of preservation due in part to the colder temps?

No, we haven't. There have been some recoveries a lot further north than where B-17s were crossing. Those recoveries were mostly close in/off or actually in Norwegian Fiords. Out of the North Sea proper I can only recall very badly corroded chunks, mainly engines, and the occasional prop and undercarriage. Actual a/c structure doesn't seem to survive.

The airborne lifeboat and use story is a great one, BTW.

Sorry.

[Shay]

What a shame, when considering the scene above must have played out hundreds of times. I do think a museum full of corroded yet stabilized recovered combat veteran airframes would to me still be an impressive and powerful site.

Shay
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Semper Fortis

[JDK]

... the scene above must have played out hundreds of times. ...

Stephen Brewster Daniels' 'Rescue from the Skies' - the story of the airborne lifeboat should reveal the details of this occasion. However from a quick look I haven't found it yet; the number of times a lifeboat has been dropped to a still floating aircraft were very rare.

Regards,

[warbird1]

What a shame, when considering the scene above must have played out hundreds of times. I do think a museum full of corroded yet stabilized recovered combat veteran airframes would to me still be an impressive and powerful site.

Shay
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Semper Fortis

While you and I would agree, I don't think the general public would find an unrecognizable hunk of aluminum scrap in the general outline of an aircraft "impressive or powerful". It would be a niche slice that such a museum would try to appeal to. I don't know if you realize how badly corroded these airframes are. A lot of them are in such poor condition, that they can't even support their own weight once they are brought out of the water. The time to do such a recovery was 30 to 40 years ago, but unfortunately the world was not ready for the "warbird movement" back then, so such an operation would not have been feasible by any stretch of the imagination back then. Fortunately, the world is ready now, but the airframes are not, having long since deteriorated to the point of being almost unrecognizable and only good for patterns for replica reproductions.

[The Inspector]

Also too bad that the C/N can't be read so we could discover who's group and crew was flying that B-17 unless someone has a really good copy of the photo or a 'puter that's newer than mine.

[JDK]

While you and I would agree, I don't think the general public would find an unrecognizable hunk of aluminum scrap in the general outline of an aircraft "impressive or powerful". It would be a niche slice that such a museum would try to appeal to.

Well off topic, but I'm not sure about that, although it's a view often taken (previously be me too).

There's a perception that a pristinely presented aircraft shows 'the real thing' but from my own puzzled experience, many young people and others seem to assume that they are 'replicas' or 'not real' in ways they find hard to articulate. Those wrecks on public display seem to show the human cost of war a lot better than these complete aircraft - I'm thinking of the Gladiator, Hurricane and Halifax wrecks at the RAF Museum Hendon, the P-40L at Anzio, or like the Betty at Chino, perhaps.

A survey taken alongside the machines might surprise some of our assumptions.

There are still many wrecks being recovered - or 'available' - in recognisable form, but they don't have the attraction to museums that archaeological collections accept, while, likewise, they aren't as attractive to airworthy rebuilds - the challenge of jobs like the MAAM P-61 illustrating that recovery is only the start of the job.

Just some thoughts based on public feedback in museums...

Regards,

PS - Inspector; Brewster's book should nail it if I get a chance to go through it.

[tom d. friedman]

i haven't seen to many airdropped rescue gear pics myself, & i'm a an aviation survival gear addict!!

[Shay]

... the scene above must have played out hundreds of times. ...

Stephen Brewster Daniels' 'Rescue from the Skies' - the story of the airborne lifeboat should reveal the details of this occasion. However from a quick look I haven't found it yet; the number of times a lifeboat has been dropped to a still floating aircraft were very rare.

Regards,

I was alluding to the aircraft ditching and less specifically to the rescue. Leading one to surmise the potential number of airframes lying on the sea's bottom. Intact aircraft have been proven to have survived in equal if not harsher environments (ie Welsh P-38, Italian P-40F, Med Corsair, Leros Ju52, Kwajalien Atoll) and electrolytic techniques equally proven by the Australian War Memorial and the Mariner's Museum to name a few have bared fruit. So a museum of stabilized intact combat aircraft is not so far fetched. With corrosion affects slow with reduced temperature one might be able to poise the argument that if airframes can litter the warm waters off Hawaii intact or a Beaufighter & Stuka can survive the warm waters off Greece then 8th AF bombers that ditched in the North Sea Have at least equal if not better chances. Just a matter if they are there or not.

Fresh water and above ground wrecks are become fewer and clouted with debate and turmoil. Wrecks out to sea at least would seem to simplify the ownership debates. Why not take advantage of technology and attempt something new? (sorta new). Processes similar to the USS Monitor turret would need to be planned out in advance to successfully recover and preserve. Imagine a museum that not only talked about and had displays of every theater of WW2 but actually had all bonafide participants on hand. While not pristine, they would be real.

Shay
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Semper Fortis

[JDK]

G'Day Shay,
I think we are at cross purposes here - the 'still floating' would be a big clue in tracking down the details of the rescue; as that was very unusual by the time a lifeboat carrying aircraft got there. That was my thought.

As to the wrecks, yes, I'm aware of the options, and I agree it would be good hypothetical museum. The Do 17 we recently heard about is a good example of the 'never say never'. However it survives because of the lack of fishing on the Goodwin Sands, and the impression I have is the North Sea has a lot of fishing and also scouring currents, wrecks not surviving complete in these conditions.

All the examples you've cited are relatively shallow waters. In the North Sea proper (rather than the Channel) the recovered wrecks - 109, Fw 190 and Skua have all been in Fjords, I think - exceptions welcome!

Regards,

[warbird1]

I think the best source of remaining warbirds would be the ones in Scandinavia which are fairly well preserved, and sunken warbirds in fresh water lakes in Europe/Russia. I think the next great untapped reservoir (no pun intended) of warbirds would be the fresh water sources in the former Communist Eastern Europe countries. Poland, Hungary, former Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, etc, AFAIK, have had very, very few warbirds recovered. If a museum or wealthy warbird owner were serious about recovering one-of-a-kind warbirds, I'm sure deals could be made with those country's governments to secure salvage rights in much the same manner as the Norway/Swedish governments have done with the 109/190/111/Fw-200 recoveries. I hope somebody or some organization can take advantage of that. Mr. Allen are you listening?

[JDK]

*BUMP*

I just found this PDF document which discusses the possible wrecks around the UK. It's a "Desk Study" i.e. scoping and possibilities, rather than the more romantic Indiana Jones go get 'em.

Be warned - PDF doc, and 161 pages long. Your browser may not load it, so maybe choose to download.

http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue//adsdat ... N=39545028

[Mark_Pilkington]

James,

thanks for that link, its an interesting UK report.

There have been similar archaeological reports undertaken in Australia particularly in WA in relation to the flyboat wrecks at Broome, but also in NSW and Victoria, but none of them seem to suggest recovery from sea is yielding anything of real restorative value.

http://wamuseum.com.au/collections/maritime/march/fallenangels/thesites.html

To be fair these reports are being undertaken by State authorities examining the achaeological values of the wrecks and protection insitu as per shipwrecks, rather than recovery, conservation and display "as is" let alone "restoration" as is usually discussed here.

Of course in some cases like the D0-17, Condor or Skua, or perhaps even the Stirling, the only option to bring one back from extinction is to recover wreckage from the sea, (and even then the recovered structures may only yield patterns for reproduction?) but for types already in preservation such as the B-17, the wartime image, even with known co-ordinates, doesnt ensure it could be found economically, let alone recovered and preserved either "as is" or restored for static display.

Even the 3 wrecks presented in this UK report are yet to prove their worthiness for recovery?

The Penbroke Sunderland is badly damaged in the forward fuselage area, and has lost its fin and one wing but apparantly otherwise relatively intact despite its shallow depth and exposure to corrosion - it is apparantly benefiting from discharge of currents from a freshwater stream?, but the report still suggests any recovery is likely to focus on conservation rather than restoration.

The Sandown C-47 is largely just a fuselage floor section sitting on the wing centre-section, and clearly not worth recovering, while the Off-shore "Intact" B-24 Liberator is describing the site as intact and undistrubed rather than an "intact" airframe, as the fuselage has rotted away completely and all that survives is the wing centre-section and remains of engines.

Despite is the success story of the Italian P40L, and past success such as the Rabaul twin seat zero by Kookaburra Publications, the time for recoverable/restorable wartime aluminium structures coming out of the sea must be coming close to an end after 60 - 70 years, and let alone complete airframes.

regards

Mark Pilkington

[Richard Woods]

Unfortunately the North Sea doesn't have much in its favour in the way of being a preservative. It is shallow, its is very salty, heavily trawled, heavily dredged, and has rather nasty currents. I have a skin panel off a coastal wreck of a Bristol Beaufighter and its condition is like lace. This is from an airframe that was half buried much like the Welsh P38.

Occasionally the fishermen or dredgers pull up something interesting, there's been a B17 wing spar that was brought ashore a few years back, and I recall pictures of a dredger with a hamilton standard caught in its teeth not so long back.

In all honesty if you want a submerged wreck there's better places to be looking.

Regards,

Ric