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When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


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 Post subject: History Channel
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:39 am 
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Caught a show last night called Boneyard, on The History Channel. It was pretty good, but highly DEPRESSING. Part of the story was about the target drone program using the F4s for Tyndall AFB. Hate to see any good airplane destroyed, but as the man on the show said the Phantoms are at least "going out in a blaze of glory". Off topic, also showed em destroying the Beech Starships. That really breaks my heart as where I used to work we maintained some of the first ones & were one of the first to put one on a 135 certificate. :cry:
Robbie

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:26 pm 
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I saw the show as well. It is almost unbelievable how much work they put into the planes to allow them to be controlled remotely only to then send them out to be blown out of the sky.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:36 pm 
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On a similar note. While I was in the Navy, we where off the coast of California and we were going to have a Sea Sparrow shoot at a UH-1 Drone. You could see the Huey off on the horizon. The missile would not fire and would not fire, then the Helo crashed and we we’re saved from the attacking Huey without a shot fired. :lol:

And for another day I could tell you the story of the Acrobatic Standard Missile shoot form the USS Cowpens(?) (They may have been a Standard or Sea Sparrows I can’t remember off hand, I’d have to check my pictures)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:00 pm 
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Here's a shot of one of those F4's en route to its demise via Barksdale AFB. I took this shot out the window of my girlfriend's office. :D She has a bird's eye view of the standard A-10 and B-52 operations, as well as the occasional visit from the B-2 Spirit, AH-1 Cobras, Air Force One, and every other type that stops through. There are a number of foriegn air force fighters (French, German) that come through on occasional as well. Lots of neat stuff!

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I also spotted these F-18's being scavenged for parts over at Cecil Field (previously NAS Cecil Field) in Jacksonville, Florida a couple of weeks ago. They were within the Boeing compound.

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Last edited by Rob Mears on Sat Aug 20, 2005 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:59 pm 
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I can provide an alternate viewpoint here, having actually shot down an F-4 drone back in 2002 from an F-15E.

As a fighter pilot, we train extensively for weapon employment using electronics and rules-of-thumb to "score" missile and gun hits. This is effective for teaching the mechanics of how to employ weapons against another aircraft, there is simply no substitute for seeing the whole process work in person. The drones are shot down during a program called "Combat Archer", which is designed to test many aspects of weapons, aircraft, and pilots. They take air-to-air missles which have reached the end of their shelf life and remove the actual warhead, replacing it with a telemetry package that transmits guidance and performance information back to a ground station.

Then, they invite front-line fighter units to Tyndall AFB, who bring combat operational aircraft and pilots to shoot the missiles. This exercises and tests the pilots' ability to operate the weapons systems. It exercises and tests the aircrafts' ability to carry, target, and shoot an actual missile. Finally it tests the missiles' ability to locate a target and track it to a 'kill'.

Three different types of drones are used at Combat Archer: the MQM-107 and Ryan Firebee subscale drones, and the F-4 "full scale" drone. Depending on the missile to be shot and what they are specifically trying to test determines what drone will be used.

In my case, I shot an AIM-7 Sparrow radar-guided missile at an F-4, and my missile shot was testing the ability to shoot when the target is performing a certain type of electronic jamming. Since the subscale drones could not carry this particular type of jammer (and since radar target size was a factor) we shot against an F-4.

I can't over-emphasize what a HUGE learning experience it was to shoot an actual missile against an actual target. One of the first things I learned was that, to use some idiomatic language, 'missiles are not laser guns'. What I mean is, shooting a missile does not instantly vaporize your opponent like if you were shooting a laser -- the engagement takes time, and lots of it! It was amazing how much time it took between when my thumb hit the pickle button and when the missile came off the rail (the longest 1.5 seconds ever!). Even more startling was how long a 30-second missile time-of-flight is when you can actually see the other aircraft flying toward you! This effect is even more pronounced for guys who shoot short-range missiles like the AIM-9, when they are actually engaged in a turning dogfight while they lock up and shoot the missile...then have to keep dogfighting as the missile tracks to the target.

Another huge lesson I learned is that missiles are machines and thus open to malfunction. Prior to participating in Combat Archer, I had this strange belief that every time I launched a missile that it would work flawlessly and hit the target. NOT TRUE! I witnessed all manner of malfunctions, from detonations 50 feet in front of the launch aircraft, to guidance fins coming off in flight, to just plain not tracking to the target. I hadn't really contemplated any of these scenarios until I saw them during the exercise. It is much better to experience these learning points under the controlled environment off the coast of the Florida panhandle than it would be in the hostile skies over badguy territory against an enemy that can shoot back.

Yes, it's tragic in a way to destroy warbirds like this...but the experience gained by those who are doing this is immeasurable. If there were an economical way to build a high-performance drone that mimiced the energy, turn rate, IR reflectivity, radar signature, etc, of an actual fighter, I agree that it would be better than shooting down a real warplane.

Unfortunately, it's not.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:05 pm 
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Thanks Randy. That was very informative. Just goes to show that there ain't nothing like experience. If it were me I too would rather experience the equipment F-Ups without the badguys shooting at me. :shock:
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 Post subject: come to life
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:04 pm 
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But you'd be in trouble if one of those drone F-4's comes to life and swings around on your tail. Nobody messes with a venerable F-4 and gets away with it :D .

They may be old, but they still got kick ass!! :twisted:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:35 pm 
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Robbie,

The Museum of Flight restoration center in Everett (Paine Field) has a Starship there. I was there a month ago, and one of the boys let me up in the plane to check it out. He also had a "typical" anecdote about how part of the aquisition deal involved pulling the engines and sending them back to Beechcraft. When the engines arrived, someone called the resto center to ask what they were supposed to do with the engines that were sent.....they should have kept them!

I remember a trip to Southbend, IN maybe back in 93 or so, I was in a 172 and saw a Starship in the pattern area with me. Actually what I really remember about that trip was it was the only time I had a "bladder induced landing". (come in hot and taxi fast!)

As far as the F4's, most will meet a demise anyhow, that can't be stopped...might as well serve a very useful purpose as Randy illustrated (thanks Randy, neat stuff)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:48 pm 
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While it is sad to see F-4 die to friendly fire, I can be happy that a lot of them are saved. It seems that the Military is at least learning something from history. We have B-52, B-47, B-57, F-100, F-4... That is a good thing. But if a few are not written off in training we may have nothing.

Randy- Make sure that AIM-7 is tuned! :wink: I was a bit surprised watching live fires to see a bunch malfunction, taking some comfort that a lot of the weapons where older than I was.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:50 pm 
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Speaking of the HC

My Dad gave me a DVD of the Search for the Lost Squadron, of coarse it froze up in the first 30 seconds of playing. I've been waiting a long time to see that and I guess I have to wait some more. :cry:

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 12:31 am 
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Here was the scene at Barksdale AFB today. Not a drone, but just as interesting! :)

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:24 am 
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TimApNy wrote:
Make sure that AIM-7 is tuned! I was a bit surprised watching live fires to see a bunch malfunction, taking some comfort that a lot of the weapons where older than I was.


Errors like forgetting to tune the missile are *exactly* why live fires are such good experience!

I dug out the photo of me shooting the AIM-7. Unfortunately, I'm the guy furthest away from the camera (that's what you get for being the wingman!!).

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:07 am 
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Great stuff Randy.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:37 am 
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Randy great photos. How much noise is there once the missle comes off the rail and ignites?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:38 am 
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Hey Randy,great stuff ! We were at D-M for their airshow with the Collings F-4 and Phan-Con was going on at the same time. They had a speaker come over to the convention from AMARC to do the typical PA routine. He had a slide show going and got to the part about regenerating F-4s for the drone program. The crowd started to get a little hostile and the LtCol asked if anyone knew why the F-4 requirement was less than had been projected. A voice from the back of the room yelled " YEAH, THE F-4'S KEEP WINNING !!!!". The crowd roared and the LtCol said his polite goodbyes and left. Agreat time was had by all, except for the AMARC Finance officer.

That was the weekend that Steve Richie and Chuck DeBellvue flew in the same F-4 together since they got kill #5 !


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