Not something you see every day

Speedy · **Posted:** Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:40 am

whistlingdeathcorsairs wrote:

[However, if you select the stunt plane to win in a dog fight against a P-51 Mustang i stand to say your wrong. I mean your taking America's greatest fighter plane,( which fought against Germany's best,) and down grading it to lose to a stunt plane? The funny thing is, is that a P-51 may stay in the air longer anyways untill the other aircraft runs out of fuel. I'm not sure what the range is on a Mustang but it's got to be great cause it seemed to escort B-17's really well!!!

I think you're missing the point of what everyone is saying here, though... Nobody is saying that the Extra could "shoot down" the P-51, or "win" the dogfight. We're saying that the Extra could SURVIVE the dogfight...and if you live to fight another day, then in most peoples minds you haven't "lost" even though you haven't "won". Just because the P-51 was America's greatest fighter plane of WWII, doesn't mean it would win. Yes, it's fast and has some great firepower.

But in air combat with guns, you have to be able to have a firing solution...i.e. estimate 'where' to aim the gun so that the bullet will get to the same space and time as the other airplane. The Extra has to be on a predictable flight path in order for the Mustang to achieve a proper firing solution...and it is so small, light, and maneuverable that a good pilot (especially if you're talking about two pilots of similar ability) that it can 'move around' so quickly that by the time the Mustang pilot gets his plane in position, takes aim on it, recognizes the situation so that his brain tells his finger to depress the trigger...well, by then (if the Extra pilot knows what he's doing), he's already rolled left, right, up, down, or whereever. Barring a random 'lucky shot', the Mustang would never be able to keep the Extra in his sights. Think of the (admittedly unrealistic) scene out of the movie The Final Countdown where the F-14's are trying to dogfight with the Tora Zero's...kind of hard to slow the Kitty down enough to shoot at it, unless he's flying straight and level.

The Mustang was a great fighter plane up against other fighter planes in it's speed/weight/maneuverability category. But you couldn't slow a P-51 down enough to maneuver with the Extra...just like how the Extra doesn't have the power/weight to climb, dive, or 'go fast'. And I can promise you that the Merlin in a dogfight situation is gulping exponentially more fuel than the engine in the Extra.

Baldeagle · **Posted:** Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:58 am

Extra schmextra....

Also, Spitfire vs. MX-2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeV13PdJzlw

-

fritzthefox · **Posted:** Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:21 pm

A big factor in any hypothetical dogfight between the two planes would be how and where they encountered each other. If the Mustang bounced the Extra, it would die quickly and colorfully. At high altitude, the Extra would also likely be schooled, since its engine (and its pilot) would be gasping for air about the time the Merlin's supercharger kicked in. On the deck, however, and especially if the combatants merged with little or no advantage over one another, the Mustang would be chasing its own tail. The Extra can out turn it and out roll it. Since the Mustang has a speed advantage, however, it could choose to disengage at any time and reenter the fight under its own terms, so the Extra pilot would have his hands full until the P-51 pilot ran low on fuel (which wouldn't happen very fast, and the Extra is not exactly loaded with fuel) or got bored. If the Extra pilot was very good, and the Mustang pilot rather green, the Extra might be able to lure the P-51 into the weeds and keep him there until he made a fatal mistake (like getting too low and slow and oh, crap, cell tower, yank-bank-shudder-crunch).

But I think flying the Extra against the P-51 would mostly be like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

mlenoch · **Posted:** Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:58 pm

I think our discussion is getting to the essence of the topic:
The Mustang cannot win a fight in the Extra's domain.
Nor can the Extra win a fight in the Mustang's domain.
For either to win a fight, one has to draw the other into its world of capability or just simply withdraw and go home.

I've 'played' with lots of smaller akro airplanes (Pitts, Extra, Chipmunks, T-6s, T-34s, Stearmans-gasp!). For the fun of it, I would stay in the small circle turning fight. Some of the good guys could get on my tail in less than one turn. When I saw that happening, I'd push everything forward - dive away from "their" fight. Naturally, I'd come back for more, just to annoy them!! :wink:

VL

JDK · **Posted:** Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:58 pm

Please leve the term 'stunt plane' for the media who don't know what an aerobatic aircraft is. :wink:

vlado wrote:

My bet is on Ryan!

You just want to collect either way. :lol:

JDK · **Posted:** Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:08 pm

Steve T wrote:

Boyyyy does that scenario ever want to be a painting...any idea what the markings on the two aircraft looked like??

Hi Steve,
That's an interesting idea, and I'd certainly like to see it - it would be different, certainly! Following on Dan's helpful advice, the C-199's colours are well documented, in fact Bob Vickman, the pilot who was killed, was the chap who designed 101 Sqn's 'Angel of Death' insignia. A quick search on his name shows a couple of other interesting elements (there's always something to learn)...

Quote:

A few days later, the 101 Squadron would discover that the S-199s' cowl machine guns were not synchronized with the propeller. It's possible that Vickman did not fly into the seathrough carelessness, but that upon strafing the port, he weakened his prop so much that it snapped in a high-speed dive on the Lysander. Vickman could also have shot his prop off while firing at the Lysander itself. Vickman, not a fighter pilot by training, could also have overestimated the S-199. He may have chased the low, slow Lysander in a power dive and not left himself enough altitude to pull out.

http://101squadron.com/101real/people/vickman.html

Make of that what you will. Note the 199's prop was a paddle blade unit, and this occupied a larger area of the arc than the 109's prop - not sure if that relates to the bit at the diameter of the prop in line with gun barrels, and of course the 199's guns worked perfectly well in previous service. Flying into the water through misjudgement is still the most likely cause.

As to the Lysander's colours, I'd be wary of being dogmatic. Probably camouflaged, but what and how I don't know off the cuff.

Good luck!

Dudley Henriques · **Posted:** Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:49 pm

Speedy wrote:

mike furline wrote:

That "other " plane would fly circles around the one with guns.

Like that pesky gnat you can't swat.

I agree. He certainly couldn't WIN a dogfight with a P-51...but he could easily NOT LOSE one.

Heck, even when we were training for ACM in the P-3....yes, the P-3...the object was to use size and (lack of) speed to your advantage and even if you could momentarily disrupt the firing solution of the guy trying to shoot you down, he would most likely overshoot because of the speed difference, and would take a while to get back in position again.

Would it have actually WORKED? I have serious doubts, and Hacker would probably be laughing his a$$ off right now reading this, but....

The aerobatic plane is a heck of a lot more maneuverable and I agree could fly circles up, down, inside, and around that P-51 in an air combat maneuvering engagement and never let him get a workable firing solution. Can't shoot him, and can't outrun him, so run him low on fuel and wait for him to head home...and you live another day.

As someone who has actually done a bit of "playing around" with a Pitts while flying a 51 I will agree. Your explanation is most likely exactly the way such a 1v1 would turn out. An Extra or an Edge would be an even more elusive adversary.

whistlingdeath77 · **Posted:** Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:50 am

I will call it a " Stunt plane" if i choose to thank you. Just like calling a Mustang a " Fighter plane." It is what it is. I just don't see how the mustang could be out classed by this aircaft. If you were in the mustang wouldn't you just fly up high keeping the enemy below you pinned down? If it went up and bled it's energy the Mustang would have it. If it tried to outrun the mustang, it couldn't. Sure, going left and right for a while would make you survive, i do believe that. But in the end the mustang would win. Personally, i think the Corsair was the greatest fighter to come out of ww2!

6trn4brn · **Posted:** Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:15 am

Thanks for making me choke on my coffee this morning there Baldeagle :finga:

Kind of reminds ya of a Monty Python skit..."and now for something completely different"...

Oh...and now you are trying to lure Bill Greenwood into this here fray? It isn't bad enough that we have people here giving Vlado instructions on the flying abilities of the Mustang...noooo...now Bill is gonna have to come in here for some remedial training on the Spitfire :roll:

Dammit...that's it...I'm gonna go stick my finger in a light socket, just because I know I am not supposed to :butthead:

whistlingdeath77 · **Posted:** Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:11 am

Now, Corsair vs. Mustang........who would win???????

mlenoch · **Posted:** Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:27 am

In a knife fight: the Corsair!

(I've $40 on the Corsair!!)

VL

mlenoch · **Posted:** Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:27 am

In a knife fight: the Corsair!

(I've got $40 on the Corsair!!)

VL

Randy Haskin · **Posted:** Fri Dec 24, 2010 7:58 pm

I see that there are a number of opinions from people who:

- Don't know what the elements of a "dogfight" are that add up to a kill, and

- Have never maneuvered two aircraft against one another with the specific intent of achieving a WEZ on, and killing, the other aircraft.

Vlado, Dudley, Speedy -- you guys are all on the right track with your posts, though.

In the fighter pilot business, we say that every question about tactics has exactly the same answer: "it depends".

Who would win in an Extra-v-Mustang dogfight (assuming some kind of weapon on the Extra)?

It depends.

Depends on who was flying, what altitude, what airspeed, what's the range and geometry of the setup, what are the weapons, what's considered a 'kill', etc.

Given one set of circumstances, it might be the Mustang. Given another it might be the Extra. Nobody can even say for sure what the outcome might be even given multiple iterations of the same circumstances.

This is EXACTLY the same answer I'd give to ANY hypothetical "who would win in a dogfight?" arguments between nearly any two vaguely similar aircraft (ergo, not a fighter vs a bomber or a transport). It's impossible to say -- there are too many variables. Dogfights aren't comparisons of statistics on paper, they are matches of men vs men with many other "random" factors that are never in black and white. This is why boxing matches (or football games, etc) don't always go to the guy who looks the best on paper.

JDK · **Posted:** Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:44 pm

Randy Haskin wrote:

- Have never maneuvered two aircraft against one another with the specific intent of achieving a WEZ on, and killing, the other aircraft.

Thankfully, we don't have to rely only on the opinions of those with firsthand experience. As several people have pointed out already - some like myself delighting in zero fighter pilot experience - there are numerous real examples of unexpected results in unequal combats.

The issue in the thread has only ever been from the start a doctrinal 'the Mustang is best, end of' view.

Regards,

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Fri Dec 24, 2010 11:32 pm

vlado wrote:

My bet is on Ryan!
VL

And I guarantee you'd lose the bet! I'm not that good (at all). It'd still be fun to try! :twisted:

With lasers... Right now I'm just at the point where I'm trying a few things... like looping the Cub a couple of times, doing wingovers, etc...

One could also flick it into a tight spin really quickly, and recover in less than 500'. I know that when I'm light I can hold it level at 30-35 mph.
The visibility from the J-3 or L-5C/G cockpit is such that I'd be quite (read VERY, VERY) concerned that I wouldn't catch sight of them soon enough to start maneuvering. With an air-to-ground link, or an observer, the odds would be a bit better, but not good. An observer L-4 or a Stinson L-5 in the observer (as opposed to ambulance) model would be a better platform.
Now a spot landing contest, I'd try... in a heartbeat!

Ryan

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