A WWII downed pilot in Normandy story and a reseach of info

[Iclo]

A short old story of war and but also familly at the same time.

I live in Belgium but one part of my familly is from Normandy (not close the famous landing beaches, but in the East part of Normandy)

Last week-end, I discussed with my Grand mother and we spoken about her memories of the war.

My grand mother was 12 in 1940 and lived with his familly in a small village near Gournay-en-Bray. This town was a important point of communication with railways and highways coming from Paris to the coast. (The town was heavily bombed and damaged in 1944)

One day, an aerial combat occured in the area and a American pilot was downed. He landed close the familly farm, in a small valley.

The unfortunate pilot was unhurt but very desoriented and was trying to escape the area. But in fact, he was running directly to a road on wich the Germans were coming to try to capture him.
The uncle of my grand Mother was spending a few days of vacations there.
He was in a intel section of the french resistance in Paris, and it's was very common to resistants to spend some days in remote location, when the situation was "too hot" in Paris, for example after one massive arrestations of resistants.

By the way, he was at the good place, at the good time: he saw the Americain pilot running in direction of the Germans, without expecting that he was running to the danger and interecepted him just at time.
They have very limited options: the Germans were only few hundred meters from there, and they have dogs "to smel the path" of the pilot.

The only way he found is to put the US pilot in the river, below an "downed tree" (hit by the lighting few weeks before) to discouraged the dog. After that he only have the time to run away enought to be able to look like an innoncent bistanders.

The unfortunate pilote spent the day in the cold river, during the germans were looking everywhere except in the river. (As expected, they think that the pilot cross the river and continue to run after that, in direction of the woods)

During the afternoon, the little sister and one cousin of my grand-mother were asked to try to provide water and food to the pilot.
As Children their presence near the river were less suspect than an adult. They receive an "picnic" basket with the instructions to "forgot" the basket against the tree where the pilote was hidden.

After the sunshine and the germans had left, the uncle came to retrieve the pilot and hide him in the farm for the night.

The following days, he was able to bring the pilot to Paris (with counterfeit papers) and hand over her to an espace section of the resistance (The resistance in Europe was organized by speciality: some people organised espacing section for downed pilot, others were collecting information, other were combat and sabotage section, etc)

The familly never receive news of this pilot. We never known if he achieved to return to England or was captured and was sent to Stalag in Germany.

Unfortunatly, I don't have lot of information except:
- the pilot come from a single seater plane (type is unknown)
- I don't have the exact date, but it was probably during the second part of the war (43 or 44)
- I have the exact location where the pilot land but not the location where the plane ended.

So, If one of you have idea of an offical service or association who have data about downed plane in France during the war, I'm more than interested.

Regards

Loïc

Last edited by Iclo on Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[gunnyperdue]

Loic-

If you can pin down the date to a month or so we might be able to locate the MACR (missing aircrew report) for that combat loss. The approximate date is important... without it it is impossible to find the report. The location will be part of the verification..... speaking of the location.... what is around Gournay-en-Bray? It is very likely that the MACR was referenced to another town, village or geographic site.

The odds of finding a report filed by the actual aircrew member is remote... but if we can determine the approximate date and location we might be able to narrow it down. It sounds from the description that is was before D-Day.... something, the time of year, the weather, winter, spring... something to help locate the date.

thanks,
gunny

[Iclo]

Thanks for the answer Scott.

I'will call my grand mother tomorrow (here, it's the middle of the night and try to obtain more details about when that occured.

Regards

Loïc

[Iclo]

A quikly done map showing how the events occures.
The blue line show the river (not very visible on the map because the tree on its borders.)

[Pathfinder]

The area in question appears to be about half way between Amiens and Rouen. This is east of Le Havre. GoogleMaps search Mottois France and you'll get there.

Gunny is right...we need to narrow down the time. This area is on the main route to EVERWHERE in the ETO as far as air ops goes.

Even D-Day might not apply here as this area wasn't liberated until mid to late July 44. But I get his point as to a time frame before or after liberation. I would presume before as the bad guys were still in the neighborhood.

This will be an interesting investigation.

Dave

[gunnyperdue]

This seems to be a river valley... is the name of the river the Bray?

The report will most likely refer to 20 miles east of Rouen, near the Bray River and the Belgian border... or something like that.

An interesting project.... nice to put two and two together.. it would be great to find out who it was. I've got the 8AF Fighter Command CR's on microfilm... unfortunately I no longer have access to a reader. The MACRs would be at Maxwell AFB and I might be going through there in late March.

gunny

[Pathfinder]

Gunny--

Just ran a keyword search in footnote using Gournay and got a VERY interesting hit on a P-47 loss on 29FEB44.

78FG 82FS 42-7916 Pilot Ronald C. Orr O-811956

He is listed POW as of 29FEB but there is a notation on the MACR that he was POW as of 10/21/44. He wound up in Luft 1 Barth.

Just a random hit...but goes to show that this CAN be done.

Dave

Edit--MACR outside of Footnote is here: http://www.ulongbeach.com/Orr_Ronald.html

[gunnyperdue]

Dave-

Excellent job.... I'd bet that river was indeed cold on the last day of February! I think it is very likely you might have found the report! Given that he is listed as a POW almost 8 months later... could he have made it through the resistance and returned to combat and then got shot down again?

Very interesting! Ain't history fun!

gunny

[gunnyperdue]

I just looked up Ronald Orr/ 29 Feb 44 in Garry Fry's 'Eagles of Duxford' and it mentions that Orr's engine quit and he was made a POW, no further mention of him. So it sounds like he was caught and the pencil note on the MACR was when they found out about him.

gunny

[Pathfinder]

or....he was scooped up by the resistance folks and was hidden for several months before being outed and grabbed by the Germans....

Found a Barth site that actually shows what room and hut he was in at Luft 1.

He also appears to have stayed in service as there is an accident report from Luke AFB in the 50s where he pranged an F-84. He shows up in the WW2 Enlisted database--before he went to flight school--hails from Michigan and being born in 1924. So the Ronald C that shows up deceased in 2001 is not him since he was born in 1912.

I don't claim that this is the report we are looking for--it is just interesting. I chose the largest town in the immediate area to key on. I could do the same thing for Amien or any other burg in the area and probably get similar results.

Dave

[gunnyperdue]

Dave-

Please explain to me what databases you are using to conduct this search... I suspect there are online resources I am unaware of!

thanks,
gunny

[L2Driver]

Gents,
My take on the description of events would preclude a February timeframe. The trees would be bare and there would likely be few out-of-water places to hide. The river looks about 2/3s the width of the nearby road so it's likely no more than 10-15 feet wide, probably less. If you were hiding under the bank (erosion from flowing water), you would still likely be visible from the opposite back -- again a mere 10-15 feet away.

Lastly, I don't think someone could survive being immersed in water all day at that time of the year. I'm not well versed on French weather but I'm envisioning temps in the 30s/40s F or single digits C. I doubt the water temps would be even be 40 degrees. The description implies in the water and I'm presuming this means literally in the water under the downed tree -- i.e. fully immersed. The survival window at those temps is pretty small.

[gunnyperdue]

L2Driver-

That's why the original poster was asked to narrow down the date.... kapisch?

gunny

[Pathfinder]

Points taken...but survival mode does change ones tolerances and abilities.

We do need to await more time data from the witness. The single most significant question and answer would be the timing of the event relative to liberation. Country people also recall events in relation to the seasons and cycles of the land/farm/animals/crops.

I was thinking of how my own scenario might play out with the extended time between his downing and 'capture', then remembered that three weeks after this event the Great Escape occurred and the occupied territories went on high alert for escapees. And soon after the news of the escape broke Allied Command advised the POW net to cease escape activities..without saying so...due to the pending D-Day invasion. So that could be the mitigating circumstance behind his being kept under wraps for so long.....but that is introducing a conclusion in advance of the facts....not smart to do in a forensic study.

[Pathfinder]

Well, everything becomes pure speculation without a source to verify....

Orr, Ronald C.

8MAY51 F-84C 47-1437 107PTS 127PTG
Luke AFB, AZ KCRGC 4
USA AZ Gila Bend Range

KCRGC Killed in Crash Ground Collision