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When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:58 pm 
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very sad news

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:09 pm 
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The pilot executed a perfectly good precautionary emergency landing.

Then the plane incinerated...

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:15 pm 
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CAPFlyer wrote:
Great to see Ray's message.

One interesting note - yesterday was a bad day for Boeing products - http://www.faa.gov/data_research/accide ... 0614_N.txt

One can only chuckle at the other two incidences although the second could have been quite spectacular (and thankfully it wasn't), but at least it we had no fatal accidents or incidents yesterday.

Also, neither the NTSB nor the FAA will ever classify an event as a "crash" except in passing in the narration and even then they do their best to avoid the word "crash". It's either an Accident or an Incident, and then varying types of them (Forced Landing, Impact with Terrain, etc). Per the FAA report, it was an Accident due to a forced landing and post-landing fire.

"WE" as in the US or the Warbird community didn't have any fatals, but Goodyear lost a blimp to fire yesterday, in Europe. The pilot got the burning blimp to the ground, got everyone else off the airship, and then went for the final cruise, steering it away from the groundcrews, as it rocketed up from the CG and weight shift overboard. The pilot died at his post. Not a great day in aviation at all.

On the slightly lighter and dark humor side, I had mentioned to one of my co-workers that I was upset about Liberty Belle. Later in the evening, he asked if I was planning to go to the viewing- My reply was "No, I heard it was closed hangar". I just wanted to share the little bit of gallows humor. If it gets a smile, then it achieved what it could. Yesterday was a great loss to me- even though I never had any involvement with the Liberty Bell, as I have said before, as a warbird enthusiast, it is like a grand old member of my "family" had passed away unexpectedly. The smaller planes go down, I understand the loss(sounds weird to say that). But when a big one goes down, even with the exceptional circumstances of the landing, etc., it is sort of like a slow motion movie, which you just can't stop seeing in your mind, that Something Big and Bad had Occurred. And I use humor to help me out of it.

I was glad to read the message posted from the Foundation. If our group here awarded medals for heroism, I would recommend the flight crew of the B-17 for the highest honors, and the pilot of the T-6 with a DFC. I just wish I was closer, and could help with something...

Scott

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:57 pm 
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I always felt close to Liberty Belle, she was the first B-17 I ever saw, before the tornado in 1979 and after at the NEAM. She was also once owned by present employer; P&W. She would also fly closes to my present home town; Middletown, Ct. landing at Hartford - Brainard Airport, same place AOPA planes will come in September. I will always remember her waking me up in 2009; she flew right over my condo. It was such a beautiful day; I got on my bike, rode to Meriden Airport, jumped into a Piper Warrior and flew to Brainard to see her. I missed seeing her in 2010 by a week or so, due to my bike accident.
Some may say to keep them grounded, but she was hit by a tornado when static. So as a pilot and A&P, I say fly them, but lets be safe. Thankfully this time it was a safe outcome.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:42 pm 
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Ray Fowler's letter certainly summed it all up.

Kudos to the crew and their professionalism in getting it down and getting everyone out.

As soon as I got home from work and fired up my home computer, I got the daily e-newsletter from AOPA and it contained a "brief" story as well as a link to a larger Chicago Sun-Times story. In that story, Don Brooks was interviewed and he did some speculating about the cause of the fire. I won't repeat his speculations here - if you want to see it for yourself, go find the CST Web site.

Even worse though was AOPA's unfortunate use of the term "replica" in describing the Liberty Belle. I assume that they simply meant that it was not the actual or original "Liberty Belle" but was really a different (but still "real") Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress that had been painted to resemble the original "Liberty Belle." I thought it was an unfortunate choice of words and I was compelled to write to the newsletter editor and tell him so.

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Last edited by Rajay on Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:32 pm 
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Rajay wrote:
Ray Fowler's letter certainly summed it all up.


Even worse though was AOPA's unfortunate use of the term "replica" in describing the Liberty Belle. I assume that they simply meant that it was not the actual or original "Liberty Belle" but was really a different (but still "real" Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress that had been painted to resemble the original "Liberty Belle." I thought it was an unfortunate choice of words and I was compelled to write to the newsletter editor and tell him so.



I sent a note to Chris Darcy at AOPA about that, and he has sent along a note to the editor as well. The term appearred as a misunderstanding about a statement in the Chicago paper: They referred to the aircraft as a replica of the Original Liberty Belle- they did not mean it to read the B-17 itself was a replica... I am hoping they will offer a correction with the next av brief.

Scott

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:37 pm 
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Reading Ray's lengthy and very much appreciated comments, I seem to sense an unspoken undercurrent of deep frustration with the fire crews saying they couldn't get their trucks into the field, yet they just successfully landed a B-17 out there... I know, different ground pressure, etc, but it almost seems like Ray was gritting his teeth while describing it.

Again- absolutely fantastic job on the part of the crew, highlighted by his description of the emergency. Just wish this had had a better outcome for the aircraft, that's all. :(

Lynn


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:46 pm 
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lmritger wrote:
Seems like we're starting to stray into the "how long is a piece of string?" area, but FWIW, perhaps "Liberty Belle destroyed after forced landing, everyone OK" might satisfy the requirements of those objecting to the word "crash"?

Lynn

I was just going to change the title of this thread to the one you mentioned Lynn but I see where it has already been changed.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:53 pm 
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the fact she suffered and lived through a tornado in 1979,( with a broken back,) and make a great comeback from restoration and have this happen to her is so upsetting. But, in the end the only thing that counts is that people were not hurt.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:55 pm 
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lmritger wrote:
Reading Ray's lengthy and very much appreciated comments, I seem to sense an unspoken undercurrent of deep frustration with the fire crews saying they couldn't get their trucks into the field, yet they just successfully landed a B-17 out there... I know, different ground pressure, etc, but it almost seems like Ray was gritting his teeth while describing it.

Again- absolutely fantastic job on the part of the crew, highlighted by his description of the emergency. Just wish this had had a better outcome for the aircraft, that's all. :(

Lynn


The frustration is understandable from the crew, I'm sure that the firefighters were just as frustrated. If you look on the Tribune link a few pages back there is a shot of one of the 1 ton trucks that is requiring assistance from a 4 wheel drive John Deere. You can also see sizable ruts near that same truck. There is just no way that any of the heavier trucks would have made it. I'm not sure if they had more rain than we did NW of them, but we have lots of water standing in fields around here.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:15 pm 
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I know this is an odd question, but my co-worker asked this of me when he saw the story on the news; What happens to all the souvenirs for the plane now that it is destroyed? I said I figured they wouldn’t have a problem selling them off now that people know there won’t be any more (heck, I think I’ll get one if I still can). But really, what would most folks do in such a case?
I’m reminded of the first time I scored a ‘volunteer’ ride with the Collings folks. I was given the option of either the B-17 or the B-24. People asked me later why I chose the Lib instead as I was such always such a B-17 fan. Thinking back to the loss of the French B-17 a few years before, I replied, “There are a few Forts around and I might get the chance to ride one of those someday, but one hiccup while landing or some mechanical issue over a forest, and I might never have the chance to ride a B-24 ever again.” Just like when they were new, sometimes things happen and suddenly a well-cared-for aircraft is bound to the earth forever, or just a memory. It can happen just like that.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:30 pm 
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Warbirdnerd wrote:
This comment was just posted on the Liberty Foundation's Facebook page...
Quote:
First, let me start off by sincerely thanking everyone for the outpouring of support that we are receiving. I am sorry that I have not yet had the opportunity to return the many phone calls, text or e-mails that I am receiving offering to help. Again, thank you for all of the kind words that we are receiving and for incredible offers to help emotionally, financially and/or with the recovery process. I hope this statement will help fill in a few details that everyone is wondering about that led to the loss of our “Liberty Belle”.



Yesterday morning, both our P-40 and B-17 were scheduled to fly from Aurora, Illinois to Indianapolis, Indiana. We were in Aurora for the weekend as a part of our scheduled tour. Over the course of the previous week, we completed a scheduled 25-hour inspection on the B-17 which was completed by Saturday. On Saturday, the weather stayed below the required ceiling to give any passenger flights, however the B-17 flew in the morning on a routine training proficiency flight, performing several patterns. Following the flight, other maintenance issues arose that required us to cancel our Sunday flying schedule for repairs. The maintenance performed has not been, in any way, associated to the chain of events that led to Monday’s fateful flight, but is being considered in the preliminary investigation. However, due to the media’s sensational (mis)reporting, there is a large amount of misinformation that continues to lead the news.



Here is what we do know… Flying in the left seat of the B-17 was Capt. John Hess. John has been flying our Liberty Belle since 2005 and one of our most experienced B-17 pilots. He is an active Delta Air Lines Captain with over 14,000 hours of flying experience and flys a variety of vintage WWII aircraft. In the right seat was Bud Sittic. While Bud is new to the Liberty Foundation this year, he is also incredibly experienced with over 14,000 hours of flying time in vintage and hi-performance aircraft. He is a retired Captain with Delta Air Lines.



The news misidentified the P-40 as flying chase during the accident. I was flying our P-40, however I had departed 20 minutes prior to the B-17’s takeoff on the short flight to Indianapolis to setup for the B-17’s arrival. The aircraft flying chase was a T-6 Texan flown by owner Cullen Underwood. Cullen is one of our rated B-17 Captains and an experienced aviator tagging along as a support ship.



The takeoff of both aircraft was uneventful and proceeded on-course southeast. Prior to exiting Aurora’s airport traffic area, the B-17 crew and passengers began investigating an acrid smell and started a turn back to the airport. Almost immediately thereafter, Cullen spotted flames coming from the left wing and reported over the radio that they were on fire.



As all pilots know, there are few emergency situations that are more critical than having an in-flight fire. While it is extremely rare, it can (and sometimes does) indiscriminately affect aircraft of any age or type. In-flight fires have led to the loss of not only aircraft, but often can result in catastrophic loss of life. It requires an immediate action on the flight crew, as the integrity of aircraft structure, systems and critical components are in question.



Directly below the B-17 was a farmer’s field and the decision was made to land immediately. Approximately 1 minute and 40 seconds from the radio report of the fire, the B-17 was down safely on the field. Within that 1:40 time frame, the crew shutdown and feathered the number 2 engine, activated the engine’s fire suppression system, lowered the landing gear and performed an on-speed landing. Bringing the B-17 to a quick stop, the crew and passengers quickly and safely exited the aircraft. Overhead in the T-6, Cullen professionally coordinated and directed the firefighting equipment which was dispatched by Aurora Tower to the landing location.



Unlike the sensational photos that you have all seen of the completely burned B-17 on the news, you will see from photos taken by our crew that our Liberty Belle was undamaged by the forced landing and at the time of landing, the wing fire damage was relatively small. The crew actually unloaded bags, then had the horrible task of watching the aircraft slowly burn while waiting for the fire trucks to arrive. There were high hopes that the fire would be extinguished quickly and the damage would be repairable. Those hopes were diminished as the fire trucks deemed the field too soft to cross due to the area’s recent rainfall. So while standing by our burning B-17 and watching the fire trucks parked at the field’s edge, they sadly watched the wing fire spread to the aircraft’s fuel cells and of course, you all have seen the end result. There is no doubt that had the fire equipment been able to reach our aircraft, the fire would have been quickly extinguished and our Liberty Belle would have been repaired to continue her worthwhile mission.



Let me go on the record by thanking the flight crew for their professionalism. Their actions were nothing short of heroic and their quick thinking, actions and experience led to a “successful” outcome to this serious in-flight emergency. John and Bud (and Cullen) did a remarkable job under extreme circumstances and performed spectacularly. While the leading news stories have repeatedly reported the “crash” of our B-17, fact is they made a successful forced landing and the aircraft was ultimately consumed by fire. Airplanes are replaceable but people are not and while the aircraft’s loss is tragic, it was a successful result.



This leads me into discussing the exceptional safety record of the Boeing B-17 and to hopefully squash the naysayers who preach we should not be flying these types of aircraft. Since we first flew the “Liberty Belle” in December of 2004, we have flown over 20,000 passengers throughout the country and if you count our historic trip to Europe in 2008, worldwide. Of the other touring B-17s, some of which that have been touring for over 20 years, they have safely flown hundreds of thousands of people. The aircraft’s safety record is spectacular and I am certain the overall cause of our issue, which is under investigation, will not tarnish that safety record. In fact, as many of you know, other B-17 have suffered significant damage (although not as bad as ours!), only to be re-built to fly again. From a passenger carrying standpoint, I can think of few aircraft that offer the same level of safety as the 4-engine “Flying Fortress”. As mentioned earlier, in-flight fires are extremely rare and certainly could affect any powered aircraft under certain circumstances. I would put my children today in any of the other touring B-17s to go fly. I suggest to anyone that was thinking of doing so when a B-17 visits your area to do so without giving our loss any thought.



There is wild speculation going on as to the cause of our fire and the affect to other operators. Please let the investigation run its course and report the findings. The NTSB and FAA were quickly on the scene and we are working closely with them to aid in the investigation. As soon as we receive some additional information, we will release it via the website http://www.libertyfoundation.org/.



The ultimate question remains, where does the Liberty Foundation go from here? After the investigation and recovery, we will determine our options. We are still committed to the restoration and flying of World War II aircraft. Again, we appreciate the support and people offering to help get us back flying.



Please check back for updates. I will close by thanking everyone that made our tour so successful. From the first day of the B-17’s restoration, thank you for all of you who labored to get her flying over the initial restoration years and to everyone that has worked on her out on tour since. Thank you to the crewmembers, tour coordinators and volunteers who gave up weekends and countless hours to support her on the road. And finally, thank you to the passengers, donors and media patrons that flew aboard and everyone who supported our cause. Hopefully, this will not be the end of the story, but a new beginning.



Regards,

Ray Fowler

The Liberty Foundation, Chief Pilot


Ray,

An outstanding summary of the incident. All are to be congratulated for their professional performance. This is what they all train for and they did exactly what was required. The controlled and composed nature of the crew exhibits what preparation is for.

Think back to the era and how many incidents of this nature took place. We have just seen a demonstration of how the same training and preparation from the 40's yield the same results today.

I stand in awe of the crew who performed according to plan this week. FTFA! Well done! :supz:

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:37 pm 
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CAPFlyer wrote:
Great to see Ray's message.

One interesting note - yesterday was a bad day for Boeing products - http://www.faa.gov/data_research/accide ... 0614_N.txt

One can only chuckle at the other two incidences although the second could have been quite spectacular (and thankfully it wasn't), but at least it we had no fatal accidents or incidents yesterday.

Also, neither the NTSB nor the FAA will ever classify an event as a "crash" except in passing in the narration and even then they do their best to avoid the word "crash". It's either an Accident or an Incident, and then varying types of them (Forced Landing, Impact with Terrain, etc). Per the FAA report, it was an Accident due to a forced landing and post-landing fire.



-80's are Douglas airplanes! Just as one doesn't call the P-51 a Boeing.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:44 pm 
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lmritger wrote:
Reading Ray's lengthy and very much appreciated comments, I seem to sense an unspoken undercurrent of deep frustration with the fire crews saying they couldn't get their trucks into the field, yet they just successfully landed a B-17 out there... I know, different ground pressure, etc, but it almost seems like Ray was gritting his teeth while describing it.

Again- absolutely fantastic job on the part of the crew, highlighted by his description of the emergency. Just wish this had had a better outcome for the aircraft, that's all. :(

Lynn


Thats why I posted my frustration about the fire response.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:16 pm 
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Nathan wrote:
lmritger wrote:
Reading Ray's lengthy and very much appreciated comments, I seem to sense an unspoken undercurrent of deep frustration with the fire crews saying they couldn't get their trucks into the field, yet they just successfully landed a B-17 out there... I know, different ground pressure, etc, but it almost seems like Ray was gritting his teeth while describing it.

Again- absolutely fantastic job on the part of the crew, highlighted by his description of the emergency. Just wish this had had a better outcome for the aircraft, that's all. :(

Lynn


Thats why I posted my frustration about the fire response.


You have to realize that the fire vehicles have limitations too. The fire department isn't going to risk its equipment in the middle of a field when everyone is out safely. I'm sure they did the best with what they had. It's easy to point fingers and say this could have been done better after the fact, but none of us know what the factors were from their perspective at the time of the incident.

Again, I'm just happy that the crew and all passengers made it out safely. The crew did a great job of crisis management, and all in a span of a minute and 40 seconds. Just think: not only did they have to find a place to set her down and deal with the mechanical aspect, but they also had to deal with instructing the crew where to go in the aircraft and where/how to get out when the time came to set her down. I commend the poise shown by the crew for quickly identifying its out and getting everyone out safely.

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