Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:21 am
Tom, all F-4s and almost all A-4s need a huffer AND 115V/400cycle power.
A-4 doesn't even carry a battery and must be manually switched to internal power after engine start by the ground personnel when the power cord is pulled.
The ONLY A-4 exception is the M model, a small APU was included when they were designed for the Marines.
A-4 doesn't even carry a battery and must be manually switched to internal power after engine start by the ground personnel when the power cord is pulled.
The ONLY A-4 exception is the M model, a small APU was included when they were designed for the Marines.
Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:49 am
wendovertom wrote:The huffer fortunately isn't a real big issue - the museum has access to a couple units. They come in real handy when starting F-104s!
Just an odd ball question - this means that every A-4 on a carrier had to go through being huffer started - was this done on deck or somewhere else?
Thanks,
Tom P.
Tom: The huffers ( APU ) were on the back of TA-75 tow tractors. Also we had NC-8 self propelled GPUs. You can convert a A-4 to battery start with a onboard APU. I could have bought a gpu and apu for 5,000.00 each. they are all over the place if you hunt around at airline auctions. or go the cheap way and get the huffer that has the big air tank but they take a couple of hours to charge. our A-4's had the worm drive in the right gear well that was like a " Donkey dick" screw drive that went into the airplane
Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:56 pm
what is a huffer??? sounds like something i bought at a head shop during my high school years of the 1970's!!! 
Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:23 pm
Tom, a "huffer " is a generic name given to a small turbine that supplies diverted exhaust air to a hose connected to the air starter on an aircraft.
Usually the engine is a GTC -85, Garrett and later Honeywell built. It can be placed in any number of cases on frames depending on the service. An Air Force -60 supplies power and air, an MA-1A is air only as is the -95. The navy has similar equipment usually more suitable for deck use.
We use a -60, MA-1A, and an NC-8A for power. The bottle start units are really not suitable in that about the time you get 10% rotation (on a J-79 ) you start losing pressure and volume and the engine just winds down. Takes 45 minutes for the compressor to recharge the bottle. With no bleed air crossover on the F-4 you would have to idle for 45 minutes to start the second engine.
The A-4M APUs are very small. Other aircraft like the KC-135 use a variant of the GTC-85 for an APU.
Broken Wrench the J-52 powered aircraft don't have the screw drive you mentioned. What model were you on?
Usually the engine is a GTC -85, Garrett and later Honeywell built. It can be placed in any number of cases on frames depending on the service. An Air Force -60 supplies power and air, an MA-1A is air only as is the -95. The navy has similar equipment usually more suitable for deck use.
We use a -60, MA-1A, and an NC-8A for power. The bottle start units are really not suitable in that about the time you get 10% rotation (on a J-79 ) you start losing pressure and volume and the engine just winds down. Takes 45 minutes for the compressor to recharge the bottle. With no bleed air crossover on the F-4 you would have to idle for 45 minutes to start the second engine.
The A-4M APUs are very small. Other aircraft like the KC-135 use a variant of the GTC-85 for an APU.
Broken Wrench the J-52 powered aircraft don't have the screw drive you mentioned. What model were you on?
Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:38 pm
As a note on "every A-4 needing a hoofer" Yes, every one would need one to start,
Just like the F-14A, A-6E and I think the EA-6Bs.
It was just one more damage on the deck, the exhaust was out the side of the unit (unlike the Air Force that were vented straight up) and would take your feet out if you walked too close too it as you passed. When the running the operator would wave his wand so let everyone know.
Just like the F-14A, A-6E and I think the EA-6Bs.
It was just one more damage on the deck, the exhaust was out the side of the unit (unlike the Air Force that were vented straight up) and would take your feet out if you walked too close too it as you passed. When the running the operator would wave his wand so let everyone know.
Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:54 pm
What about Northrop T-38's and F-5's? What is their startup method?
Ted
Ted
Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:27 pm
GE J-85 in those airframes need airstart also. I wish I bought that airstart unit. I would have been a great instrument to torture the neighbors! I love to hear airstart units fire Up. also T-53's in UH-1s. The new aircraft can airstart when the onboard APU is inop. I wonder if that is a no go item on a F-16? Help 16 guys!
Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:36 pm
How about the Lears that use the non-afterburning CJ-610 version? Surely those don't need a start cart?????
Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:15 pm
MX304 wrote:Can the T-38 / F-5 hybrids be modified to self start? I would have sworn I saw Perot's 38 self start.
AFAIK the only modification that can be made is the diverter for the air can be cockpit selectable. In USAF airplanes it isn't and in NASA jets it is.
I think that NASA tried to figure out a way to make the jets self contained but couldn't do it.
Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:16 pm
RickH wrote:Tom, a "huffer " is a generic name given to a small turbine that supplies diverted exhaust air to a hose connected to the air starter on an aircraft.
FWIW, the proper name for the air cart is 'palouste'.
Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:20 pm
Broken-Wrench wrote:I wonder if that is a no go item on a F-16? Help 16 guys!
F-15s and F-16s crank engines via a little engine called a JFS, or Jet Fuel Starter. The JFS is started via two hydraulic accumulators that get it spinning. Once the JFS is operating at full speed, it is connected to the Pratt-220, -229, or GE -129 and starts it spinning.
The JFS is *definitely* a go/no-go item as you can't start without it. It is possible to air-start in flight, though, if you have a minimum airspeed.
Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:01 pm
Nice thing about at least the F-16 is if the accumulators are down, you can get out the Tbar and hand pump them back up....several hundred strokes to crank pressure.... 
Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:21 am
cvairwerks wrote:Nice thing about at least the F-16 is if the accumulators are down, you can get out the Tbar and hand pump them back up....several hundred strokes to crank pressure....
The Pilot get out and do that? I think it would be the low man on the line that would get that honor (i.e. Enlisted and most likely E-1 range).
Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:59 am
TimApNy wrote:The Pilot get out and do that? I think it would be the low man on the line that would get that honor (i.e. Enlisted and most likely E-1 range).
It's the crew chief who generally has to do it...that could be anyone from an E-2 to an E-5. The handshake agreement that pilots had with the crewdogs when I was in the F-15E was that they would pump the bottles up once...and if it had to be done subsequently the pilots would jump out and do it.
I've done it once or twice myself, although I think that it only takes 60 or 70 pumps to get sufficient pressure and not several hundred...