From a C-47 crash site. Someone can help us?

patelie · **Posted:** Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:08 am

Welcome here Ken!
I think that your request on your page is about to be solved... by Dave as usual

salerno1943 · **Posted:** Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:45 am

I'm happy to meet here Ken!
I hope to find other relatives so I must build history of these soldiers for a article I'm writing for some historical magazine I write and for a exibhition in our small museum.

Pathfinder · **Joined:** Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:35 pm **Posts:** 587

Just as an example of how and why it will be difficult (but not impossible) to track the families of these casualties, here are some of the problems:

1: Military reference to Residence.

These men were adults and not necessarily still in the same location where they grew up. People migrated to find work--the draft boards followed them, so to speak, so while a person might enter service in Alaska, he could well have been from Maine.

Value of Military Enlistment Residence: 6/10

2: Last known Family Group Reference:

Most likely the 1930 Census. Most of these men would have been minors, under the age of 21, so it is possible to find the family group and determine any other siblings. Then those siblings can be brought forward.

Value Family Group Reference 8/10

3: Census

The inherent problem with the Census is that it was created by humans, with all the problems that that entails. Census takers were not genius's. They tended to write what they heard, and phonetic spelling is a huge variable. They are notoriously bad a math--especially division by factors of 12 when it comes to indicating a persons age. That means there is a built in error of +/- 24 months when searching a person by age.

How the census taker wrote what they heard was also widely varied. Hand written block letters and/or scripted text all have their peculiarities from writer to writer. And those got worse by the end of each day.

The Census has been transcribed to text format--but this again was done by humans observing someone else's hand writing from 80 years ago. This increases the errors exponentially.

As an example:

Casualty Loney Portee shows up as LOVEY PORTER. In a different STATE than he enlisted from. (Scripted n reads as a scripted v) (Open loop of last e in Porter appears to be an r)

Casualty Walker Dozier shows up as WALKER DOGIER. In a different County that he enlisted from. (Scripted z misread as a scripted g.)

Value of Census 0-10/10

These are just examples. The problems are not insurmountable--just time consuming.

Sometimes I describe what I do as:

Putting a jigsaw puzzle together--with the picture face down--in the dark.

salerno1943 · **Posted:** Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:27 am

I understand difficulties but I hope (with your and other help) we will be lucky as we be until now!
Thanks!

kennyboo62 · **Joined:** Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:05 pm **Posts:** 5

My uncle was part of the 366th Infantry Regiment and had been assigned to aviation security at Ramitelli and possibly elsewhere. They guarded the planes of the black (Negro) 332nd Pursuit Squadron led by Colonel Benjamin O. Davis, Jr. There is a 366th infantry website which might be helpful in locating family members: http://www.wiz-worx.com/366th/.

Very interesting.

Pathfinder · **Joined:** Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:35 pm **Posts:** 587

Ken--
All attempts to contact the 366th site have bounced back or otherwise failed. The person running the site was a single individual and no updates have been made in years.

I contacted the Buffalo Soldiers Museum in Houston and they have "no interest" in the 366th or the 92nd....only the Cav units! Go figure.

There is a Mr. Minor associated with the 92nd Association. I put a call into him and left a message. I realize the 366th did not join the 92nd until NOV44, but you have to start someplace!

DB

kennyboo62 · **Joined:** Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:05 pm **Posts:** 5

I was in touch with the 366th site owner a few years back. Sorry to hear that the 366th is not considered Buffalo Soldier worthy. Like the rest of the 92nd, they wore a buffalo patch and qualify in my book.

Pathfinder · **Joined:** Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:35 pm **Posts:** 587

Ken--

PM sent

DB

AURktman · **Posted:** Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:05 pm

Ken,

I am a faculty member at Tuskegee University and have several contacts with the Tuskegee Airmen Museum. I will pass along the unit and other information listed above to those who work at the museum and see if we can get some official records. I also have several contact at Maxwell AFB who might be able to get some official information as well. I can't promise anything, but I will certainly give it a shot.

Eldon

Pathfinder · **Joined:** Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:35 pm **Posts:** 587

Eldon--

That would be great. Maxwell has some monthly diaries for the 904th Air Base Security Bn, but the index I saw was missing the summer of 1944. The 366th was an Infantry unit so highly unlikely Maxwell will have records. I would bet on NARA Suitland, MD, for the records of the 366th IR for July and August 1944.

kennyboo62 · **Joined:** Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:05 pm **Posts:** 5

As I mentioned to Eldon in a PM, the 366th was unique with an all black officer cadre. This did not endear them to the 92nd Division leadership. As a result, they were not allowed to serve as a unit until the summer of 44. They were doled out piecemeal on special assignments like airbase security. Maxwell may be the right place if these men were assumed to the 904th.

Pathfinder wrote:

Eldon--

That would be great. Maxwell has some monthly diaries for the 904th Air Base Security Bn, but the index I saw was missing the summer of 1944. The 366th was an Infantry unit so highly unlikely Maxwell will have records.

patelie · **Posted:** Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:23 am

Dave and All

I don't know but, if these men were not attached to the 904th, or belonged to this unit, AT THE TIME of the crash, why the squadron diary has mentionned the fact that the planes ferried negro personnel from the 904th ??????

Pathfinder · **Joined:** Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:35 pm **Posts:** 587

Patrick--

If we accept the fact that information transmitted between people is subject to interpretation, the diarists received the information about the 904th from somebody. The casualties are buried as 366th, not 904th.

Where do they get 904th?....The other survivors? Some officer or NCO in charge?

About the only "administrative" way I can see as to how men of one unit can be 'designated' as being from another is by virtue of DS---Detached Service. (About the same as the modern TDY).

Again I use my Pathfinder studies as an example... If a man was sent up to the Pathfinder School/Group on DS he was still paid by his parent unit. If he became a casualty he would be buried under his parent unit identification...not the Pathfinder School/Group. Of all the casualties in the Pathfinders during the war, there is only one man buried as a "Pathfinder". They are all buried according to their parent unit. Similarly, if a Pathfinder is involved in an "accident" the incident is written up against the pilot by virtue of his parent Group and Squadron.

I think that Ken's reference to the men being detailed to airfield protection in small groups is very likely. Administratively I have to believe that the casualties were on Detached Service to the 904th ABS Bn (AAF). But their death is reported by the paper-pushers against their parent unit the 366th INFANTRY Regiment.

This habit of units being "selfish" with their identification even goes to reporting casualties. Again in the Pathfinder diaries I have seen, as an example, if a single crew is made up of three men from one Squadron and two men from another Squadron the three men are reported in detail in their unit's diary, and the other two aren't mentioned at all. It is very strange, but appears typical across all AAF reporting.

I think we will find that DS is the key to the methodology used in the reporting, and the information will be in the papers of the 366th Infantry Regiment in Suitland. Again, the index at Maxwell shows that the summer of 1944 is missing from the 904th files there.

Pathfinder · **Joined:** Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:35 pm **Posts:** 587

Matteo--

I believe I have found a current contact for the family of Dozier (100%) and the family of Gaston (75%).

The Gaston contact entails a significant geographical change, so requires further verification. Similarly, Harrison (50%).

The Fairfield family was already "splintered" when he was a young boy--blended families (divorce and remarriage) and he had sisters, so VERY hard to find current relationships.

I have consulted with Ken about this. Communicating with him (he wanted to be contacted) versus contacting a family "out of the blue" requires two completely different methodologies.

I have been doing this for over 30 years....and it is never easy to bring these tragic events to the surface again.

Will advise

Ztex · **Posted:** Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:23 am

This is a most interesting thread!
It is amazing how much AND how little is known about the events of WWII. When you get down to the nitty gritty details it all seems to get a bit fuzzy.

Thanks for all the work you folks are doing to set the record straight!

I'm going to "sticky" this thread...it will be at the top of the page.

Waiting breathlessly for more info! (no matter how long it takes... )

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