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Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Luftwaffe Resource Center
When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:05 am 
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Alright, gonna post one on here that I have'nt seen put up here yet, and it's a simple one.....what was the final list of top squadrons and their kills from WWII (American only for now)....if anyone could list them from top to bottom, the squadron, what they flew and the number of kills they had at the end of the war (or at the end of their combat run, probably some squadrons got broken up before the end of the war)....I'm only really looking for about the top 20 or so but the more depth the better. It'll be interesting to see the mix of Air Force, Navy, Marine squadrons on the list!

Mark

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:05 am 
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corsair166b wrote:
Alright, gonna post one on here that I have'nt seen put up here yet, and it's a simple one.....what was the final list of top squadrons and their kills from WWII (American only for now)....if anyone could list them from top to bottom, the squadron, what they flew and the number of kills they had at the end of the war (or at the end of their combat run, probably some squadrons got broken up before the end of the war)....I'm only really looking for about the top 20 or so but the more depth the better. It'll be interesting to see the mix of Air Force, Navy, Marine squadrons on the list!

Mark



8th AF Fighter Command stats begin on page 2:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/ ... ATIONS.pdf


Are you counting total aircraft destroyed or just aerial combat?

And if you ever decide to include the Luftwaffe:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=20962

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:23 am 
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HORRIDO! by Col. Raymond Toliver and Trevor Constable is an excellent reference for Luftwaffe fighter aces and scores. I've had my copy since 1979 and you need to go a very long way down the kills lists to find the Allied comparable kills scores, a puny 26 kills put you a long, long way down the list. I suppose it's still available, the ISBN # is 0-553-12663-6 if you want to check into AMAZON or a large specialty used bookseller.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:52 am 
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With over 11.000 kills top unit ever is German JG 52 but it would be interesting to know more about other countries.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:29 am 
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Just remember the Luftwaffe was shot down three times if you add up all the victories...


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:48 pm 
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Invader26 is right! The "winning" squadron will be the one that overclaimed the most ...

August


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:04 pm 
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Wow....People Unclear on the Concept....did NO ONE read my original question? Here, I'll post it again...

Alright, gonna post one on here that I have'nt seen put up here yet, and it's a simple one.....what was the final list of top squadrons and their kills from WWII (American only for now)....if anyone could list them from top to bottom, the squadron, what they flew and the number of kills they had at the end of the war (or at the end of their combat run, probably some squadrons got broken up before the end of the war)....I'm only really looking for about the top 20 or so but the more depth the better. It'll be interesting to see the mix of Air Force, Navy, Marine squadrons on the list!

Might I point out this little nugget...(American only for now)....

And we're still no where near answering the question.... :evil:

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:20 pm 
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VF-15, "The Fabled Fifteen", "Satan's Playmates" or what ever you
want to call them stand alone. In a single tour aboard USS ESSEX
they ammassed 310 confirmed aerial kills. Led by CAG "Dashing Dave"
McCampbell from Bessemer, AL, the Navy's all time leading ace with
34 kills and a MoH recipient, they were beyond compare. They flew
the best fighter of WWII, the Grumman F6F Hellcat. With a 19 to 1
kill ratio, it gets no better. Piloted by the best of the best, the Hellcat,
collectively know as "The Big Blue Blanket" swept the Japanese from
the skies over the Pacific, protected the greatest fleet the world has
ever known, enabled the island hopping campaign, and put the AAF in
a position to deliver "Little Boy" and "Fat Man".


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:39 pm 
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Listing of US Navy squadron totals (Including VF-15's impressive tally):

http://acepilots.com/usn_sqns.html


Top USAAF unit in ETO was apparently 353rd FS with 400.

Number two in ETO is a guess; maybe 334th FS with 395 (210 air/ 185 ground).

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:52 pm 
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JOMiller wrote:
VF-15, "The Fabled Fifteen", "Satan's Playmates" or what ever you
want to call them stand alone. In a single tour aboard USS ESSEX
they ammassed 310 confirmed aerial kills. Led by CAG "Dashing Dave"
McCampbell from Bessemer, AL, the Navy's all time leading ace with
34 kills and a MoH recipient, they were beyond compare. They flew
the best fighter of WWII, the Grumman F6F Hellcat. With a 19 to 1
kill ratio, it gets no better. Piloted by the best of the best, the Hellcat,
collectively know as "The Big Blue Blanket" swept the Japanese from
the skies over the Pacific, protected the greatest fleet the world has
ever known, enabled the island hopping campaign, and put the AAF in
a position to deliver "Little Boy" and "Fat Man".


OK, I'll take the bait. I would think 310 "confirmed" would be questionable at best. Many of those kills may(or may not) have appeared legit in the heat of combat, but as history and diligent research has shown, many pilots/aircraft lived to fight another day. As an example the famous F-86/Mig-15 kill ratio has gone through several revisions downgrading the number of Migs shot down. Another is the published kills of the 49th FG in Australis in 1942 where the number of actual kills was probably half
of the recorded amount. The AVGs record in China has also been questioned over the years. The same goes for the overestimates on the other side, especially by the Japanese.

Regarding the F6F, IMHO, it more than served its purpose against the opposition it normally came up against in late '43 through
'44, but was equaled and sometimes surpassed by later Japanese fighters especially when flown by competent pilots. In 1945 if I had a choice between an F6F-5 and an F4U-4 it would have been the Corsair hands down. The P-38L, P-47N and P-51D also had a big edge over the Hellcat.

Duane


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:55 pm 
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Agree with Duane too. To believe in the Hellcat's 19:1 kill ratio, you have to be drinking kool-aid that is about 67 years past its sell-by date. The JAAF/JNAF were probably shot down even more times over than the Luftwaffe!

August


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:58 pm 
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I've just been reading a good book on the defence of Darwin.The Spitfire wing claim claims were about three times higher than the Japanese records post war show. There would be no point in fudging your own losses as it was not a contest rather the opposite of claims like body counts in Vietnam


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:52 pm 
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Mark - some of us just don't care (me) and arguably, recognise it's essentially unimportant, like your best trading cards score or best conker at school. (Look up conkers if you have to - great game.)

The role of fighter squadrons is essentially defensive and to achieve air superiority so the war can be won by others. High scores by individuals, units or air forces are not a reflection of achievement in strategy, but a reflection of the strategic situation, and things like a target rich environment - or not. Higher fighter scores are often the result of being in a defensive situation, and defensive situations mean you are closer to losing, so while it's not a inevitable result, many high scores were achieved just before the battle was lost. (Exception - Battle of Britain). High scores on the offensive are either early in, or exceptional (Barbarossa - mostly ground kills, Marianas Turkey Shoot, a famous exception.)

The teenager-beloved 'which aircraft is best', and, more appropriately, hono(u)ring the bravery and individual guts of the airmen, and (rarely noted) the quality of their training and logistic support all come lower down the factor list of success than where, when and why.

So as has been touched on, wartime and honestly-compiled claims are almost always over-stated (although not as much as those that would degrade the Luftwaffe experten hope) but what matter, as in war, and most other contests, who holds the field afterwards. If you dispatch the enemy's attempt at air control, however many or few kills it takes, that's what matters.

That'll teach you to ask a perfectly reasonable question carefully couched! :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:57 pm 
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corsair166b wrote:
Wow....People Unclear on the Concept....did NO ONE read my original question? Here, I'll post it again...

(snip)

And we're still no where near answering the question.... :evil:


Relax, chief.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:28 am 
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corsair166b wrote:
Wow....People Unclear on the Concept....did NO ONE read my original question?

The thing about forums is they aren't an exam, and they're hopeless for staying on topic, however careful you may be about asking a carefully thought-through question (or not!). :axe:

They're great for finding out all the other stuff you didn't expect to find... :shock:

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