Warbird Information Exchange

Didn't say there were no repercussions. There would have to be, with a body count like that. But airshows were not banned, and as I recall, there was very little affect of shows in the USA at the time, as the type of maneuver which caused such a high body count [multiple aircraft criss crossing towards the crowd line] was restricted in the USA anyhow. Never did any followup to the aftermath of the disaster in Germany itself, thanks for the info.
What kind of flight profile was in play in Reno at the time of the incident, ie high speed turn, flying straight ?

I have little doubt that the pilot did everything humanly possible to avoid the crowd, with what little control he had over the machine. I ended up seeing film clips today, and my thought was as bad as it was, it certainly could have been a whole lot worse.
And guys, please put no stock at all into yahoo comments. This crowd is notorious for making wisecracks on stories of little girls getting hit by cars, ect. There is no limit to the crudeness of most of them, just anonymous trolls trying to get a reaction.

It has been a bad year for shows indeed, I was present at Selfridge MI for the stunt walker fatality. But perspective must be kept, and every weekend this summer around the globe, and into the fall and winter in warmer climes, there has been and there will be and will be dozens of shows with hundreds of flights that never get any attention accept by those in attendance ,,, Simply because there were no incidents.

I have known the Leeward family since my dad bought his P-51 in 1977. Jimmy was one of the "nice guys" in aviation and was also a family guy first and foremost. I remember they always brought airplanes to Oshkosh, worked an exhibitors tent for the Leeward Air Ranch, and brought their whole family back then.
From my observation, he was more conservative than my dad or many other P-51 owners. Often in the races he would pull "up and out" without finishing citing a mechanical of some kind. He used to be so conservative. My thoughts and prayers go out to his son Dirk and other family members as well as to those injured. A nightmare of a catastrophe to all involved.

http://www.renown.org/workfiles/pdf/ren ... update.pdf
9/17/11 11:15 a.m.
Total deceased from all patients received by Renown Health for this incident is 2 (1 Male, 1 Female).
NOT 4 as erroneously released in some media
9/17/11 10:06 a.m. Clarification
Renown Regional Medical Center has received a total of 30 patients from this incident.
6 critical
2 serious
5 fair
1 good
2 deceased (as previously reported)
14 patients have been discharged

They just announced at the NTSB press conference there were 7 fatalities at the scene including pilot.

Fox just said 9 confirmed.

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Those who possess real knowledge are rare.

Those who can set that knowledge into motion in the physical world are rarer still.

The few who possess real knowledge and can set it into motion of their own hands are the rarest of all.

Kind of wondering if today's West Virgina air show mishap, along with this one and other recent ones, will force the Feds to take some kind of action? Public outcry and media attention may force them to do something.

From my time flying in the CG, if we had a rash of mishaps, a safety standdown was mandatory. In my last couple of years in...starting about 2007-ish....we had maybe 3 or 4 Class A's. Several helo's and a C-130 off of Cali. All of them are ugly and tragic.

Like any incident, folks want answers and fixes. At the same time because we're not inanimate objects and just getting out of bed is a risk, then over reacting would be silly. Folks keep talking about what a lousy year it's been. Has anyone considered that maybe that many more birds have been resurrected and are flying now? Sure seems to me the growth of the warbird world has been on the rise, and with it the chances for more accidents will happen.

So lets relax, let the system do it's investigating as they should and keep in mind that living is always a risk. In some ways it wouldn't be living if it wasn't.

Remember that in this saturation media age, there are a lot more folks with a little bit of knowledge trying to act like they know something. It's still on us how we react to that.

Like someone pointed out, more people have been killed at soccer games this year...

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Those who possess real knowledge are rare.

Those who can set that knowledge into motion in the physical world are rarer still.

The few who possess real knowledge and can set it into motion of their own hands are the rarest of all.

Thanks for the fascinating discussion, guys.  I've watched a few videos, including the top of grandstand live stream feed that happened to be located pretty much directly under Jimmy's final flight path and it shows the carnage of the impact area seconds after the Ghost went in.  It appears to me that the initial impact point was clearly *within* the rows of box seats (just outboard of the second row and before the third?).  Like a broom, the 'blast' swept away everything in it's path in a direction heading away from the camera.  Seeing the rows of congested box seats minutes before and then immediately afterwards leaves me amazed that many more folks were not killed.  A real miracle!  I have no idea if it was Jimmy or the Ghost itself doing what it could, but as everyone here knows by now it could easily have been much worse.

Remembering I had it stashed away in a storage box, I broke out my copy of Carter and Matthews' excellent MUSTANG:  THE RACING THOROUGHBRED to read about the plane.  The chapter "More Than One Ghost" has me fascinated - was Leeward's airframe the real Ghost or not?  Has late research since the book confirmed or denied the plane's true identity?  Reading the text of the book one can easily conclude that there really is no certainty.

Briefly, Raymond and Belville sold the true Ghost to Jack Hardwick in 1950, who flew it away after striking the deal.  It was seen as late as 1952 at Hayward, California, and then very likely went to Israel.  No records exist as to her true fate.  Then, according to historian Dick Phillips' research, relayed to Carter and Matthews, this serial number popped up and appeared for auction in 1956 to cover a mechanic's lien (what's THAT story, BTW - wouldn't the mechanic's records have had some reasonable indication as to the back-in-the-USA-and-maybe-before history of this airframe?).

Per the book:  "Was this the original airplane of the 1946-1949 era?  In all probability it was not.  Israeli agents used N79111 and other civil registrations a number of times, according to Phillips.  It was a matter of convenience in moving the aircraft about and preparing paperwork for eventual export.
In 1960, Cliff Cummins of Ontario, California, acquired the aircraft carrying license registration N79111.  By 1969, he was campaigning this Mustang at a number of races.  At this time, everyone assumed that the Galloping Ghost had returned to air racing.  But, it seems there was more than one Ghost . . .". [p. 114 of the Matthews book]

Legally of course, the serial appears correct that this was the actual Ghost - the remaining hulk - that was brought back to life by Cummins as Miss Candace.

Any late data?  Here's the WIX registry entry:  http://www.warbirdregistry.org/p51registry/p51-4415651.html

Wade

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Wow, just found out about this at the Tennessee Museum Of Aviation event today, Then as I was leaving I heard about the WV crash. I'm stunned and in shock!

It is a sad day! My thought and prayers go out to all involved and are left with their world forever changed. You just never know.

Tim

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www.tailhookstudio.com

I vote for a safety stand down.

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Bill Gorin
Vintage Flying Museum
http://www.vintageflyingmuseum.org
https://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=57513906106

Of what, and for what reason?

Reno?
All airshows?
All aviation?

Safety stand-downs are designed to stop whatever activity is ongoing that requires safety scrutiny and give time to re-evaluate.

In the case of the Leeward crash, I don't see anything that is systemically wrong that would be 'solved' by a stand-down.

In the case of the several incidents that have happened in airshows this season, unless there is some link between the root causes of the accidents, I also can't think of what would be fixed by a safety stand down.

All the parties involved at Reno, from the organizers to the pilots and support, all have active safety programs that have only been getting more intensely focused as time progresses. I'd venture to say that from a system safety standpoint, there has probably never been this much focus at any time in the history of the NCAR.

I'm sure everyone is all ready taking a step back and re-evaluating things on their own, just as aviators always do when an incident occurs. I'm struggling to see where a formal stand down (for a year? two years?) would accomplish at this point.

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I vote for safety, but not a stand-down. We can have a safety stand-down, have classes and seminars, then get back in the air and there is no promise that something bad won't happen within 24 hours. Over the past few years we have been changing the mentality of the business, safety becoming even more firmly fixed in everyone's minds. Sometimes things just happen, that's why they are called accidents.

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Mike

I dont even see where safety is an issue. I think for most pilots safety is number 1 and I don't think Mr. Leeward was lacking any of it. I think warbirds and vintage aircraft are safer then newer aircraft.

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Me, too. All that would mean is more rusty aviators...

If anything, to me there is a striking dis-similarity with this years' rash of crashes. Age? Amanda Franklin. Mechanical? A few. Medical? We don't know yet...

It's tough.

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