Flying Fortress as a night bomber

[Dave Homewood]

Apparently No. 214 Squadron RAF was equipped with Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress Mk II's and Mk III's.

Wikipedia states: "In January 1944, the squadron was converted to special operations, joining No. 100 Group RAF for electronic countermeasures in support of the main bombing operations.

The squadron used the Fortress Mk II and Mk III and Stirlings. The used the jamming system codenamed "Airborne Cigar" (ABC) to block German nightfighter communications. German speaking radio operators would identify and jam the ground controllers broadcasts and also pose as ground controllers themselves with the intention of steering the nightfighters away from the bomber streams."

Would these aircraft have actually carried a bombload and gone all the way to the target? Or was it simply there for ECM duties? Did they have a reduced crew or less guns so more ECM equipment could be carried?

And if this squadron did not actually partake in the dropping of bombs, did the RAF or any other air arm use the B-17 ever for night bombing? And was it a success in that role?

[The Inspector]

Used to jam/misdirect german bombers using 'oboe' to navigate to targets, I believe the system was called 'pipe rack'. Gloss black up to the bottom of the cockpit windows and standard sand/spinach top surfaces, lots of external antennas that resemble old roof top TV antennas.
Operated by 100 group along with B-24's, Mossies, etc.
A bit more info, they were based @ Sculthorpe in Norfolk and used a wide variety of aircraft doing all sorts of 'SHH, nothing to see here..' middle of the night stuff. Post war use contimued as a special ops field and was closed @ the end of the cold war. The 352nd SOG out of Mildenhall still does 'SHHH. nothing to see here..' practice stuff several night a week using TALON C-130's but don't breathe a word of it-

[norman malayney]

Read the book, "A Thousand Shall Fall" by Murray Peden, a pilot who flew 214 Squadron B-17s. He published an article on WWII RAF ECM warfare in Wings/Airpower back in the late 1970s. Another excellent book with detailed information on ECM B-17s is Martin Streetly's "Confound and Destroy."

Norman Malayney

[Simcoe Warrior]

Read the book, "A Thousand Shall Fall" by Murray Peden, a pilot who flew 214 Squadron B-17s. He published an article on WWII RAF ECM warfare in Wings/Airpower back in the late 1970s. Another excellent book with detailed information on ECM B-17s is Martin Streetly's "Confound and Destroy."

Norman Malayney

Yes, I would highly recommend that book.

[JDK]

It's one of those open questions that hard to cover all the ramifications accurately.

Would these aircraft have actually carried a bombload and gone all the way to the target? Or was it simply there for ECM duties? Did they have a reduced crew or less guns so more ECM equipment could be carried?

The 100 Group Forts didn't carry a bomb load, their job was ECM, and as they were sometimes electronically lit up like a Christmas tree and stoogeing on the edge of or in enemy territory it was certainly very dangerous work. Calling it 'simply there for ECM' I think gives away a preconception of relative importance and risk - saying that gives the impression it was some make-work second-rate effort: it wasn't.

Normally carried extra crew for the ECM tool management, them and the kit compensated for by not having a bombload.

Some RAF Lancasters also carried ABC, and an extra operator and flew in the bomber stream with a bombload. However that was only one (or part) of the counter-measures deployed.

As The Inspector's already said, much of the work was hush-hush at the time, and it's often forgotten now that they were what we'd now call 'beta testing' experimental kit in a rapidly evolving environment that was also a combat zone; so the efficacy (or not) of many of the tools was hard to be sure of; including tragic Bomber Command crew myths such as the "protection" they were getting from having a rear warning switched on, which actually the Germans used a tool to vector onto. 'Monica' and 'Flensberg'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monica_radar

Airborne Cigar (ABC)
This was only fitted to the Lancasters of 101 Squadron. It was three aerials, two sticking out of the top of the fuselage and one under the bomb aimer's position. These aircraft carried a German speaking crew member on board and were used to jam radio to German night fighters and feed false information on allied bomber positions to them. Due to the nature of the equipment, the enemy was able to track the aircraft and due to this, 101 suffered the highest casualty rate of any squadron. Fitted from about mid-1943, they remained until the end of the war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Lancaster

Image here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lanca ... -_1944.jpg

I don't believe the 100 Group Forts used Oboe as the Inspector says. That was a target marking device that required the aircraft to fly a measured arc on an electronic signal over the target - the Forts didn't do that, some Lancs and mainly Mosquitos did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oboe_%28navigation%29

And if this squadron did not actually partake in the dropping of bombs, did the RAF or any other air arm use the B-17 ever for night bombing? And was it a success in that role?

AFAIK, the B-17 was never used regularly for night-bombing in Europe. Some raids started or finished in the dark, or shuttled to (or from) N Africa in the dark.

The RAF's first Forts were used as high altitude daylight bombers, but were rejected as "not combat ready" after a few experimental raids. Issues with fuel tank protection, and inadequate armour and guns - the RAF never really liked the flexibly mounted guns and preferred turrets in all positions. After that, I think the RAF had given the B-17 'dog a bad name'.

US B-17s undertook some night raids in the Pacific, I believe, but there wasn't a strategic level bombing campaign until the B-29 entered service. RAF and RAAF B-24s in the Pacific were used by night as well as by day.

Early B-17s didn't have ground mapping radar (H2S) some later (formation / unit lead) ones did, enabling better bombing through cloud.

As to refs, the RAF Bomber Command book from PSL is pretty good too on 100 Group; however I think some of the data is unlikely to ever be published.

HTH!

[Dave Homewood]

Thanks everyone and especially James as you have pretty much answered me questions. I didn't mean to belittle the role at all, I should have said only rather than simply.

[JDK]

I should've added I'm no expert, "but I have books that smell in a study".

My comments re- the Pacific particularly are very much from memory, others may be able to detail or contradict those comments with better gen.

[Dave Homewood]

You reminded my James that yes, the USAAF did fly bombers including B-17's at night. I have a copy of a dray of an RNZAF chap, who was at Santo and he records night missions involving B-17's bombing Guadalcanal etc.

[The Inspector]

Sorry, must be a context issue, I re-read my original post and I should have made it clearer that the 100 group used their equipment to jam Oboe since it was a Luftwaffe system. That's the problem with all of us speaking a 'common' language which is open to local interpretations and lexicons.
Like a Welshman describing something to a fellow from Cajun Lousiana, both speak 'English' but neither really understands just what the other is really saying

[JDK]

Sorry, must be a context issue, I re-read my original post and I should have made it clearer that the 100 group used their equipment to jam Oboe since it was a Luftwaffe system.

Hi Inspector,
Nothing to do with whose English; 'Oboe' as per my refs earlier, was a British bombing aid. I think you may be thinking of the earlier Luftwaffe 'beam' system 'Knickebein', which was jammed and diverted by the British around the time of the Coventry Blitz; however AFAIK, all the jamming for that was done from the ground.

That was based on the Lorenz landing aid. The British Oboe worked in a similar manner, but rather than providing the intersection on two streight line projections was based on a point on an arc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Beams

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oboe_%28navigation%29

And there's a ref here to a German version of 'Oboe' used on the Eastern Front. We live and learn!

Regards

[The Inspector]

JDK,
Thanx, it does get confusing @ times to figure out who named what system from which side and whether it was ground based or airborne, it quite likely was Knickebean-
Danke'

[JDK]

I now try and check everything, because when I don't... However I was researching Oboe specifically with a colleague recently, so was on that. Couldn't remember how to spell "Knickebein" or the name Monica for the counter-productive one, though.

[Jigs Bumper]

Hi all... just looked in here after a while away... saw this question.

Suggest you have a read of following Link I prep'd up some time back concerning our 422nd Sqn - 305th BG. The 422nd and its crews were the first in ETO to fly dedicated night missions and the first to experiment in night bombing missions in co-operation with the RAF. The link charts all this, in some detail.

http://forum.armyairforces.com/422nd-Ni ... 91795.aspx

As you will see, the experiment proved of little worth in a pure bombing mission, and any thoughts of switching the USAAF campaign to night operations in line with the established RAF missions was not followed through. But, the valuable experience gain from those early pure bombing missions, was put to use in a new mission, as you will have read, that of propaganda and the dropping of newspapers and leaflets across occupied countries, in specific languages.

Ian White
VP 305th BGMA
UK Contact & 8th AFHS POC
305th BG Historian

[SaxMan]

Does anyone have a roster of planes that participated in the RAF's first 1,000 plane raid of the war on Cologne May 30 - 31, 1942? From what I read, "Bomber" Harris was scraping up planes from everywhere, including 250 from Coastal Command. Is it possible that there were any B-17s in the mix?

[JDK]

Good question. The Coastal Command aircraft were withdrawn at the last minute, apparently (and Coastal used Forts, but I'm not sure when).

Make up:

30/31 May 1942 - The first thousand-bomber raid, Cologne

1,047 aircraft were dispatched, this number being made up as follows:

* 1 Group - 156 Wellingtons
* 3 Group - 134 Wellingtons, 88 Stirlings = 222 aircraft
* 4 Group - 131 Halifaxes, 9 Wellingtons, 7 Whitleys = 147 aircraft
* 5 Group - 73 Lancasters, 46 Manchesters, 34 Hampdens = 153 aircraft
* 91 (O. T. U.) Group - 236 Wellingtons, 21 Whitleys = 257 aircraft 92 (O. T. U.) Group - 63 Wellingtons, 45 Hampdens = 108 aircraft Flying Training Command - 4 Wellingtons

http://www.raf.mod.uk/bombercommand/thousands.html