libya free / khadaffi's gone / remains of b -24 lady be good

[JDK]

James....
If we ever manage to to meet on one of your trips to America...we've tried a couple of times...I'd be glad to tell you "war" stories on 3rd Air Force community relations efforts during my time in the UK.
They did a lot, but I wasn't the two-star who made the decisions.

It'll happen, and that's a booking.

[whistlingdeath77]

would it be any easier to locate pacific wrecks? Or are they still owned by the military, buried in the pacific jungles etc?

[marine air]

THe Libyans have never had the right to vote or free elections. Before dictators, they had monarchies. They are pretty far behind the curve for free societies and this new freedom may revert back to yet another dictator.
My vote is to have a C-5 deliver donated computers, school and medical supplies in exchange for a return cargo of the LBB. THe odds are poor it will survive too many more forms of government and it has a 99% per cent chance of being sold to the smelters. It looks to me like it was cut up already and was being hauled off when someone interceded.
When Communism fell in Russia and the free market began, that is when all the P-63's, Spitfires, Mustangs, and other WW II wrecks, were gathered up and sold for their value as scrap metal. Scrap metals are bringing good prices now.

[StangStung]

^^ I think this is the real threat. Very good point.

[Ztex]

Some "recent" shots of LBG that I had not seen... These show here to be at El Adem Airbase (TOB), Tubruq in 2008.

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/22002247

http://r4.dfw06s20.c.bigcache.googleapi ... 002468.jpg


The other photos I have seen show her in Tobruk in 2007
http://www.montrealfood.com/lbgpics.html

Has she been moved again?

[tom d. friedman]

THe Libyans have never had the right to vote or free elections. Before dictators, they had monarchies. They are pretty far behind the curve for free societies and this new freedom may revert back to yet another dictator.
My vote is to have a C-5 deliver donated computers, school and medical supplies in exchange for a return cargo of the LBB. THe odds are poor it will survive too many more forms of government and it has a 99% per cent chance of being sold to the smelters. It looks to me like it was cut up already and was being hauled off when someone interceded.
When Communism fell in Russia and the free market began, that is when all the P-63's, Spitfires, Mustangs, and other WW II wrecks, were gathered up and sold for their value as scrap metal. Scrap metals are bringing good prices now.

i think you are forecasting the future quite accurate. bummer!!

[Ken]

Some "recent" shots of LBG that I had not seen...

This won't be a popular observation, but it is my honest opinion.

Other than the most dedicated warbird/history buffs, the Lady Be Good story and the aircraft itself are little more than passing tales in an increasingly short-attention-span society, just as there are an unlimited number of topics that have passed each of us over the years (news, science, literature, etc) that have mostly been forgotten.

Compare photos of LBG in 1959 and now. At the hands of mankind, she has atrophied into a heap, barely what could be called a "shell" and barely recognizable as a B-24. Although appropriate measures to preserve what is left should be taken to honor her crew's sacrifice, my enthusiasm to hurry up to fund and create a historical diorama or museum display (particularly outside of Libya) has dwindled to near zero. What do you say to visitors? It's not like the climate or a storm damaged her, it was strictly the selfishness of vandals and lack of action by nation(s) that, admittedly, had more pressing issues than to recover her from her remote resting place. I would not care to see parts added to her to help represent her appearance in 1959. Considering the amount of effort and funds needed to do something on a level many of us initially envisioned as worthy of LBG story, I would rather see those resources put towards another project. I hate to say it, but it is now true.

Sometimes we miss opportunities and they are gone forever. That is what we have here. I'll continue to be fascinated with the story, interested in the artifacts, and deeply solemn remembering the sacrifices of her crew, but I will do those things through books, photos, visits to the artifacts at NMUSAF (and elsewhere in the US), through thoughts, and with words. What I see in that compound today no longer represents much of the LBG to me. Similar to the torched superstructure of the USS Arizona that lies hidden on Waipio Peninsula, the remnants should be preserved (not scrapped) but as far as a the LBG being a museum centerpiece, I no longer see that as a viable alternative - I see it as a missed opportunity.

Ken

[JDK]

Good post Ken, and you make some excellent points.

Just to follow on from those, if we see the Lady be Good as an historical artefact, rather than an aircraft any more, then the fact it has been damaged subsequent to discovery is actually more common than not; from the stripping of the surface of the Pyramids downwards, most historical artefacts we have that tell us about history and pre-history bear significant damage from theft and vandalism subsequent to their own historical period or event/s.

I'm personally not that bothered whether the Lady is preserved in Libya or the US; however I do think that the US has long ago waived any rights or recovery; essentially at the point they were informed of the aircraft's discovery, and when they chose, in the words of the LIFE magazine article to 'take some instruments for testing', a euphemism for the first round of souveniring by officialdom, IMHO. That was the moment of the 'missed chance' as you've highlighted the concept. In reality, or course, no-one was recovering such wrecks as we would do now, so it was'nt a realistic option, just a view with hindsight.

Given those two points, following yours, my view (FWIW) is that the remains as they stand should be conserved and on display in Libya, where the aircraft came to rest, and as a gesture of friendship those pieces in the USA returned to the aircraft. There it would provide a different display in a location where the history of W.W.II is likely to get re-written or forgotten. Recovered to the NMUSAF (the most appropriate US venue) would be, (IMHO again) 'just another airplane, (wreck)' or a beaten-up version of the 'Bitch'.

Restoring it to completeness or flight would be a travesty.

As you've identified, most of what's important with the Lady is the 'story' and the events. That seems to me to be a good it to what's called 'Intangible Heritage' a newer concept in museum and historical studies, and a very interesting one, being a legitimate reason also for the operation of warbirds.

A definition of 'Intangible Heritage': http://portal.unesco.org/culture/en/ev. ... N=201.html

And a piece I wrote regarding an example of it in a parallel field to us: http://vintageaeroplanewriter.blogspot. ... hovel.html

Hope that's of interest, as Ken's thoughts are,

Regards,

[Pogo]

Wonderful discussion. Thank you, gentlemen!

[tom d. friedman]

ken's point is as cut & dried as it gets, & put very well!!

[The Inspector]

I completely agree with Kens statement and JDK's followup comments and I would really prefer she stay in Libya where all her history is. There she helps tell a part of the occupation story of the country by the Germans and the Commonwealth forces and the struggles that went on in that god forsaken piece of real estate.
If she was brought back to the U.S. she would lose all her iconographic lure and even if gold plated and mounted over the front door of the the Pentagon, it wouldn't have half it's impact and just be regarded by 99 out 100 passing beneath it as 'that ratty old scrap airplane.' Moving it out of Libya would be close to desecrating her grave.

[wingman1]

what about the one or two crewmebers remains that have not been found, or have they all been recovered yet?

[JDK]

what about the one or two crewmebers remains that have not been found, or have they all been recovered yet?

From the Wiki page, the rest of which has a bit more detail, and if I read it correctly, the missing crew member may have been found and buried before the Lady was found:

Subsequent searches uncovered the remains of all but one of the crew.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Be_Go ... ircraft%29

[wingman1]

what about the one or two crewmebers remains that have not been found, or have they all been recovered yet?

From the Wiki page, the rest of which has a bit more detail, and if I read it correctly, the missing crew member may have been found and buried before the Lady was found:

Subsequent searches uncovered the remains of all but one of the crew.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Be_Go ... ircraft%29

Has they been any recent eforts to locate the remains of S/Sgt. Vernon L. Moore, the only one of LBG's crew that has not been recovered?

[wingman1]

The members of the Lady Be Good crew were:

1st Lt. William J. Hatton - pilot - Whitestone, New York
2nd Lt. Robert F. Toner - co-pilot - North Attleborough, Massachusetts
2d Lt. D.P. (initials only, also seen as "Dp") Hays - navigator - Lee's Summit, Missouri
2d Lt. John S. Woravka - bombardier - Cleveland, Ohio
T/Sgt. Harold J. Ripslinger - flight engineer - Saginaw, Michigan
T/Sgt. Robert E. LaMotte - radio operator - Lake Linden, Michigan
S/Sgt. Guy E. Shelley - gunner - New Cumberland, Pennsylvania
S/Sgt. Vernon L. Moore - gunner - New Boston, Ohio
S/Sgt. Samuel E. Adams - gunner - Eureka, Illinois