Warbird Information Exchange

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed on this site are the responsibility of the poster and do not reflect the views of the management.
It is currently Wed Jun 25, 2025 9:24 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Luftwaffe Resource Center
When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 72 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:52 pm 
Offline
BANNED/ACCOUNT SUSPENDED
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 12:37 pm
Posts: 1197
The IAM at United didn't have any programs like that. We had a guy that was a danger with a drill and was constantly trashing parts. We glued all his drill bits together so they looked like a figure 8. that's what his drilling looked like.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:53 pm 
Offline
S/N Geek
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2004 8:31 pm
Posts: 3790
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Aircraft Mech Paul wrote:
If a volunteer really has the desire to learn what is being done...fantastic. But if, and folks can tell, he is just there for a more social thing or hoping for a ride, then yes...guess what...you get to sweep the floors and clean up the hangar and wipe down the plane.


As a potential volunteer for the hands on work some day (my regular job prevents it right now), I must say that is perfectly fair. In your position you are not only spending $$$ on the aircraft, but also time on training the volunteer. If the volunteer is not showing the committment, then I think it is fair that they grab a broom instead or find the door.

Mike

_________________
Mike R. Henniger
Aviation Enthusiast & Photographer
http://www.AerialVisuals.ca
http://www.facebook.com/AerialVisuals

Do you want to find locations of displayed, stored or active aircraft? Then start with the The Locator.
Do you want to find or contribute to the documented history of an aircraft? If so then start with the Airframes Database.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:25 pm 
Offline
WRG Staff Photographer & WIX Brewmaster
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:57 am
Posts: 3532
Location: Chapel Hill, TN
mrhenniger wrote:
Aircraft Mech Paul wrote:
If a volunteer really has the desire to learn what is being done...fantastic. But if, and folks can tell, he is just there for a more social thing or hoping for a ride, then yes...guess what...you get to sweep the floors and clean up the hangar and wipe down the plane.


As a potential volunteer for the hands on work some day (my regular job prevents it right now), I must say that is perfectly fair. In your position you are not only spending $$$ on the aircraft, but also time on training the volunteer. If the volunteer is not showing the committment, then I think it is fair that they grab a broom instead or find the door.

Mike


We had a couple guys in my Navy shop that the broom or mop was the only tool I'd trust them with! One had all the desire in the world to work (to prove he was a hero, he almost killed a very good friend on mine and burnt a full-armed FA-18 on the flight deck. All he had to do was pull the chaff / flare switch back instead of forward like he did) the other was just incompetent (and unmotivated); I guess both were incompetent for that matter.

_________________
www.tailhookstudio.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:57 pm 
Offline
Long Time Member
Long Time Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 7:13 pm
Posts: 5664
Location: Minnesota, USA
And response to another post. You don't practice riviting on a expensive airplanes.

Well, I guess I can appreciate that opinion, but that's exactly how I learned to rivet: On a Lockheed product first riveted together back in 1945. The mere fact that I WAS learning on a vintage aircraft motivated me to FOCUS on the task at hand, as well as listen to the advice being given by the mentor.

I think you might have missed the point I was making: Having an expert for a partner made all the difference. With even just a little bit of instruction, you have to admit it would be difficult to really screw up the job. Did I toenail some while bucking? Sure I did. Everyone does. It's not the end of the world. Remove it. Sink another.

If you are asking me if I would hand a drill to an inexperienced volunteer and tell him/her, "Go drill out that rivet"; No, I wouldn't hand them the drill...at least not until I had demonstrated the correct way. Your acquaintance who needed a 1/4 to replace a 3/32 obviously had never been taught that correct way.

I must respectfully disagree with your advice on not using hearing protection. I know exactly what you mean by "the sound." It can still be heard with hearing protection in place. In fact, you'll probably be able to hear it for many more years than the fellow riveting without earplugs. :wink:

_________________
It was a good idea, it just didn't work.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 11:39 pm
Posts: 764
Location: Huntsville, Alabama
Dan K wrote:
And response to another post. You don't practice riviting on a expensive airplanes.

Well, I guess I can appreciate that opinion, but that's exactly how I learned to rivet: On a Lockheed product first riveted together back in 1945. The mere fact that I WAS learning on a vintage aircraft motivated me to FOCUS on the task at hand, as well as listen to the advice being given by the mentor.

I think you might have missed the point I was making: Having an expert for a partner made all the difference. With even just a little bit of instruction, you have to admit it would be difficult to really screw up the job. Did I toenail some while bucking? Sure I did. Everyone does. It's not the end of the world. Remove it. Sink another.

If you are asking me if I would hand a drill to an inexperienced volunteer and tell him/her, "Go drill out that rivet"; No, I wouldn't hand them the drill...at least not until I had demonstrated the correct way. Your acquaintance who needed a 1/4 to replace a 3/32 obviously had never been taught that correct way.

I must respectfully disagree with your advice on not using hearing protection. I know exactly what you mean by "the sound." It can still be heard with hearing protection in place. In fact, you'll probably be able to hear it for many more years than the fellow riveting without earplugs. :wink:



Dan,

please beleive me, I wasn't advocating NOT using hearing protection while riveting. I use and have used it in my career. Aside from the music I have listened to and the jet nise I have been exposed to over the years, belive me I want to keep my ears and hearing intact for as long as possible. ALWAYS use hearing protection around loud and noisy areas. :D

Paul


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:02 pm 
Offline
BANNED/ACCOUNT SUSPENDED
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 12:37 pm
Posts: 1197
[quote="Dan K"] And response to another post. You don't practice riviting on a expensive airplanes.

With even just a little bit of instruction, you have to admit it would be difficult to really screw up the job. Did I toenail some while bucking? Sure I did. Everyone does. It's not the end of the world. Remove it. Sink another.


I strongly disagree with this If you bounce off the rivet the rivet and gouge a circumferential " Could require a Doubler " or Blow out a hole drilling it out you could compromise the Edge distance. All it takes is a second and you made alot of work for someone. I was the sheetmetal janitor at United Airlines and all I did was clean up novice mechanics FU's. It's good your focused but you need to really practice on scrap and try different tecniques. Before you pick up a rivet gun you should know your rivet and drill bit sizes and the type and properties of various fasteners and rivets. You don't come to the airport to take flying lessons without reading the books and manuals do you?


Your acquaintance who needed a 1/4 to replace a 3/32 obviously had never been taught that correct way.
He was a mechanic Belive it or not.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:14 pm 
Offline
BANNED/ACCOUNT SUSPENDED
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 12:37 pm
Posts: 1197
We had guys at United who would get a sheetmetal card and start on a S/M project. They would screw it up and they would go ask the supervisorfor a easier job so they wouldn't have to fix it. "United does and didn't have any accountability for screwed up mechanics" That's when I took over. I'm sure volenters do the same. I have no problem with them messing stuff up if they leave their Visa card at the door so they can't wonder off after messing stuff up..


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:27 pm
Posts: 182
Aircraft Mech Paul,

You are correct. Your HYPOTHETICAL example got me thinking a bit. It really depends on the situation and the personality of the pilot. I have a A&P and fly, so I can sign off a repair and go fly, and if it fails, it is my fault. But like I said it really depends on the situation. For example, in your HYPOTHETICAL situation, I finished up the repair and was eager to go flying. You had signed it off in the book. But, if that was real, I would probably have wanted you to look at the work before I went flying because you signed the book. If a pilot is also one of mechanics, and he is not signing off the repair, he should know that he can't fly until the guy who is going to sign off tells him it is ok. But some pilots, just want to go flying, and they do not care. That is why we have so many warbird crashes. Some of these pilots just take so many risks with priceless aircraft, they are asking for death, which is not good. It truly depends on the pilots personality.

Anyway...

Eric

_________________
Keep 'em flying!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Not reading manuals
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:42 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!

Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 8:06 pm
Posts: 1662
Location: Baltimore MD
Quote:
You don't come to the airport to take flying lessons without reading the books and manuals do you?


Well, I uhh.... Well you see.... I didn't really.... We sorta.... It sorta went like....

YEAH, I DID IT!

And I don't recommend it. But this is where that mentoring thing fills in. I don't advocate turning loose people with hammers, saws, and drills without some type of education, but nothing beats just doing a task and using it as a demonstration. I am about to learn a whole lot about fabric and will probably read the appropriate sections of 43.13 on it before touching anything. But there are those like me who just need to learn the old, prehistoric fashion way- seeing and doing.

Comment on ownership. I love the concept of the repairman certificate on aircraft like experimentals have, and think that there is no reason why (except about a hundred years of FAA history) it couldn't be extended to
personally owned and built certified aircraft as long as the owner follows 43.13 for all repairs and modifications throughout restoration and operation. If you can restore an L4 and then fly it 100 hours without any problems then pass an annual, why couldn't you be granted a repairman certificate for that particular aircraft? It's all documentation anyway, with very little actual inspection by FSDO's, so why not do it for privately owned/restored aircraft? I'd like to see the comments from the A&P's and IA's on this.

Great discussion- hope to see more posts!

_________________
REMEMBER THE SERGEANT PILOTS!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 11:09 pm
Posts: 360
Location: Northern VA
FF:

There is a great videotape on fabric and finishing, I think put out by Randolph. Check Spruce & WagAero catalogues.

And of course Tony Markl is a great resource as well. He's redoing a Bamboo Bomber right now, he may want some grunt help...

_________________
Regards,

Jase
www.b26marauder.com
"I'm having a BLAST!!" 2007 CAF Wing Staff Conference

RIP Gary Austin..always in our hearts


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Not reading manuals
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:15 pm 
Offline
BANNED/ACCOUNT SUSPENDED
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 12:37 pm
Posts: 1197
Forgotten Field wrote:
Quote:
You don't come to the airport to take flying lessons without reading the books and manuals do you?


Well, I uhh.... Well you see.... I didn't really.... We sorta.... It sorta went like....

YEAH, I DID IT!

!


I wouldn't mined either if I was your flight instructor because you would be paying me $45 an hour. Why must us Mechanics teach our trade for FREE?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:46 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 12:32 pm
Posts: 349
Location: South Central Minnesota
Field,

Good topic and one that is near and dear to me. If you don’t mind I’ll “opine”

In my opinion it’s not possible to run a “perfect” maintenance program. At best you can run a satisfactorily adequate program that serves the aircraft, operation and pilot(s) to the safest possible degree. Paul nailed it in his first post when he said a great many variables need to be considered when working up the maintenance routine.
“How often does the aircraft fly? How proficient is the pilot? What conditions has the aircraft been flown in, ie; a lot of wind, rough landings etc. Does the aircraft in question have enough "time" flown on it during the course of a typical "airshow" year to warrant more than a couple of 100 hr and a good annual inspection during the year? How "good" or healthy is the engine?”
I would also add and more than likely that routine will need to be tweaked a little as you move forward, especially if it’s an odd ball with little historical data to work from.

Benchmarking a good Warbird maintenance routine is again, in my opinion, not only based on the FAR’s and all of the factors listed above, but also by taking a good cross-sectional view of how the type is currently being operated, what’s working what’s not and adapting from that information. You will look at the manufacturers data for the type (although to a lesser degree simply because we are operating these aircraft differently now than they were during their service years, we’re operating them well beyond their intended service life and finally because many things that have a marked impact on schedules and routines changed such as fuel, oil and coolant quality just to name a few). As somebody already mentioned giving everything the fish-eye several times over really makes the difference. You check my work and I check your work, license or not. You work on my airplane, you sign in on my maintenance log and when you sign out you make a quick note of all the things you touched and that includes cleaning the airplane! If you are going to be working on it, the requisite manuals are within hands reach, period. If you are caught working on the airplane not signed in or without manuals you sit in the corner with the dunce hat while the rest of us consider what part of the floor needs swept……

The old A&P vs. Volunteer debate again. I’ve seen volunteers that I wouldn’t trust to work on my bicycle or sweep the floors around the airplanes, and they were licensed, experienced A&P’s. I’ve had non-licensed volunteers that fell into the same category. I’ve also had non-licensed volunteers with great mechanical aptitude and a lot of non-aviation related mechanical experience and they proved to be the best mechanics I’ve ever worked with. Although the responsibility that the licensed mechanic carries when he/she signs off an inspection needs to be respected, it’s quite unfair to waive that piece of paper in front of equal or better quality non-licensed mechanics and claim superiority. I have witnessed too many times to count and it causes my BP to surge! I will let the subject lay at that. As Brandon said, there is a lot of tribal knowledge out there and a great deal of it is in the hands of the non-licensed. This too must be respected.

Volunteers….here is how I was initiated into the brotherhood of Warbird mechanics some 20 years ago and how I “evaluate” new potential volunteers today. Everybody starts in the same place, sweeping the floor. It sounds menial and perhaps it is to somebody who has experience in the trade with a good head on their shoulders, but I don’t know anything about a person until they are put to a few simple tests. Sweeping the floor tells me a few things; willingness to be there, eagerness to do any job that needs to be done, how well the job was done and the new recruit’s attitude while doing it. Depending on how well they did, they may sweep floors for some time to come or “graduate” to touching the airplane, cleaning it to my exacting standards. I will show them precisely how I do it and give them half the airplane as an example of how I expect their half to look. They will also be instructed on what I expect them to look for and write up while cleaning it, such as loose screws, unsnapped Dzus’s, cracks, chaffing, leak streaks, smoking rivets, etc. To me cleaning an airplane is not the simple task of making it shine again, it’s a real fine way to inspect its entire exterior and flight control surfaces. It also forces the new recruit to look at the airplane up close and personal so they get to know it… an awful lot can be learned if attention is paid. Passing that simple task means they will be asked to participate in the next inspection, whether it’s a 25, 50, 100 or annual. No, they won’t be touching the anything without specific directions and won’t be doing any critical tasks. They will likely be cleaning the insides of panels, internal structure that is now open, vacuuming the interior of the airplane. If you are getting the feeling that I believe cleaning an airplane is the best way to get to know it, you are right! It also keeps the grime out of it which causes it to wear prematurely. Promising candidates may also be asked to do some oiling, greasing and maybe change the oil. From there I have a pretty good idea of the quality of the individual I’m working with. With each subsequent inspection they will be tasked with increasingly more technical work most often working directly with me or one of the other experienced volunteers until we are both comfortable with how things are progressing.

I have, and in fact we all have lost too many dear friends playing this game therefore I am in no rush when it comes to these airplanes. The war ended 60 years ago and we have time to do things right. Human life and the well being of the airframe are far more important to me than having to make it to the next show.

Sorry for the long “bloviating” post!

John Beyl
Crew Chief CAF P-51C


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:09 pm 
Offline
BANNED/ACCOUNT SUSPENDED
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 12:37 pm
Posts: 1197
It has been a long time since I have read a post that is so well written. You Hit the rivet on the Head! Great! :D


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:08 pm 
Offline
BANNED/ACCOUNT SUSPENDED
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 12:37 pm
Posts: 1197
There were better knowlegabe mechanics without certificates in my EAA Chapter than some of the guys I worked with at United! Some mechanics at UA just did it for the money and it showed. Not to Slam anybody but we need to raise the proffesion to a new standard. Manuals, Reasearch and Inspectors. Check and Double check!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 11:39 pm
Posts: 764
Location: Huntsville, Alabama
Eric,

Think of it this way. The Hypothetical I described is, in it's own way, a mirror of life with the FAR's as I have come to know them. In that the FAR's state to the effect (I'll parapharse because I do not quote directly well without the info in front of me to do it), that No one shall perfom a task for which he or she is not "current" or "currently rated" to perform. And...the following "no rated mechanic my buy off or inspect his own work". That is why we have IA's and at the airlines...Inspectors, primarily for that purpose. Because no single A&P may work on and accept work that he or she has performed. Take an annual for exapmple. You must have an IA come in and give what your or the rated A&P did to complete the annual.

This is why I made the argument for having "approved" individuals performing and signing for the work involved. Now, please understand I was not pointing fingers at the volunteers or the pilots in this on a specific level. The FAA is only going to look into the logbook for a Liscense number and name of the individual who signed off the job.

Eric, I applaud you for taking the time to accomplish and hold BOTH ratings, of Pilot and A&P. My compliments to you sir. By the way you have carried yourself in this conversation, I would conclude, without meeting and working with you directly, that you are one of those "rare" people who carry with them a "mental maintenace checklist" when you perform the work you do.

And also, as I have said in many postings here...the lives involved are precious. They should be taken and thought of with great care. The plane can be repaired..perhaps not replaced, but lives most certainly cannot be replaced. And the grieving familes need not be subjected to the loss of a loved one due to an inattentive person. Vigilance is paramount here.

May I ask...what Warbird do you own and particpate on ?? Because from a personal perspective, it has been some time since I was actually "hands on" myself. And while I still love the idea of becoming an active particpant once more, I have found myself in a geographic situation where there is nothing for me TO participate in.

Clear and blue skis to you Sir,

Thoughts ??

Paul


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 72 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], MKD1966 and 34 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group