Warbird Information Exchange

Boy, I'm just full of good ideas!

This is not a thread to speculate on where the Belle actually belongs. We can do that on the other thread...
Okay, the Belle is back home. Its official home. But wait, I thought its home was Memphis? My point is that if a local cultural icon like the Belle can't be maintained with dollars raised by a WELL populated metropolitan area, what does that bode for other warbirds?

Specifically, what are you seeing out there for popular support for warbirds? Are you noticing any trends that we can change by what we do? Are you noticing any bad practices that are driving people from warbirds and related support networks/venues?

As an aside, does anybody know the financial picture of the Belle? It's a hell of a great dollar to action ratio case study on what it costs for an aircraft of that type....

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REMEMBER THE SERGEANT PILOTS!

My understanding is that the multiple groups in Memphis could not decide or raise the funding to build a permanent selfsustaing facility to house the aircraft. General Metcalf wanted the Belle at USAFM, they make the rules , the plane is now in Dayton.

Same thing happened in Ft Worth on the B-36. They had years to work something out in Ft Worth. Working the aircraft was not the issue. That was happening either at Alliance and later at the L-M plant where it was built. Gen Metcalf and his staff decided to move the aircraft to Pima. Now it's in Tucson.

Other museums should be paying close attention before they get caught short.

Just be glad the Belle is safe and will be returned to her former glory. Unlike the discrace that is Oregon's "Gas Station B-17 Bomber"!!!!

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Don't touch my junk!!

Not to make trouble or to pick on anyone...just another view, or another facet of the same situation.

IMHO you have lumped together a few examples that have very different backgrounds.

I think we would all agree that Memphis Belle is a historically significant national treasure/memorial/symbol because of its combat record. "Lacy's Lady" in Oregon (currently "flying" over garden supplies) has no combat heritage & no historical significance: "Lady" has been under private control (in private hands) since obtained from post-war surplus stock. Then, if we need another unfortunate situation of a neglected warbird, there is always "Preston's Pride" in Tulare, CA...another sad situation, but, I digress a bit.

If you want to make a more apt comparison of historically significant warbirds in "public" hands, let's look at "Memphis Belle" and "The Swoose" at NASM (the only known surviving D model Flying Fortress and one of the very few surviving American combat aircraft that saw continuous service from December 7th 1941 until the end of the war).

In a little bit of "damning with faint praise" here...The Belle, compared to The Swoose, has been more cared for and better protected since the war, perhaps ONLY by comparison to the way-too-long period of neglect suffered by The Swoose, first in LA and then later (unforgiveably IMHO) by NASM. And, in spite of its rarity & significance, no schedule for the restoration of The Swoose has been announced by NASM.

Lest you think I am just some critic of NASM, I have been member of NASM's Air & Space Society for well over a decade; contributing my money for aircraft restoration and maintenance. For the same reason, I am also a member of the Friends of the NMUSAF.

...moving on...

Adding the B36 from Fort Worth into the discussion of Memphis Belle is a little apples & oranges kind of thing. With a bit of luck, some perserverance and some connections, you can actually see over 40 surviving B17's in various conditions (I've seen 32). But, you can only see four (count 'em 4) B36's (I may be unaware of partial airframes/cockpits). Both aircraft are rare, but for rather different reasons...combat history vs. low numbers.

Your point is very well taken that there are similarities in the inability of all these groups to create working coalitions to raise sufficient funds to restore and protect these rare aircraft, so the NMUSAF decided to step in and take action to change those two situations.

And, you raise a very legitimate concern that this might possibly indicate some underlying problem with future preservation of Warbirds. I wish I knew the answers here. Since I don't, I have chosen to donate money to several entities that restore and preserve these touchstones to our history. Its not an asnwer, but I think its better than nothing and it is something I am able to do.

...over to you...

Without too much more explanation, that is exactly what I was trying to say. You put it better than me.

Today, we have airshows, museums, private collections, private business, public institutions, etc. to support the acquisition, maintenance, and operation of warbirds. But what will we have in the future? And what does the future have in store if the namesake town of a world famous aircraft cannot raise funds/create infrastructure to maintain it in present place?

I'm not criticizing the AFM for doing anything. Here is what I am trying to say, and I hope I get it right this time:

1. Does the example of the Memphis Belle, considering the long term involvement of several non-profits, numerous fund-raising efforts, and several restoration attempts, show us that our present approach to funding warbirds is inadequate for their long term preservation? To qualify this, I don't have the numbers on the Belle. But I am aware of the fact that twice in my life I was asked by someone to donate to the Belle's preservation and this wasn't enough to keep it in a stable preservation environment.

2. Is our approach to public involvment in the warbird movement contributory to this state of inadequate funding/improper investment of resources/whatever has been done wrong to preserve a warbird as far as spending goes? What can we do to change our approach?

3. Is this a trend of the future regarding warbirds?

I hope this clarifies what I am asking of the board, and that it gets us thinking. I welcome any comments/criticism to any of this post.

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REMEMBER THE SERGEANT PILOTS!

Guys, what I was pointing out is that because of local political indifference or infighting the aircraft were removed by the ultimate controlling authority.

I don't believe that there was an inability to raise the necessary funds. I think that there was an inability for those groups in both places to come up with a feasible cohesive plan that would allow sufficient funds to be raised and then applied to protect those aircraft for the long term.

In that respect I also believe we ARE talking apples to apples.

Combat record or aircraft rarity doesn't change the above facts.

as the 1st u.s. plane in europe to complete 25 bombing missions the belle represents the success that was so tuff to to achieve & so many tragically never achieved. she represents the ones who cheated death or capture, & those that didn't make it or suffered behind barbed wire. she is the 1st aerial weapon that is an icon to any ww 2 bomber flyboy. it is fitting that she is in a true place of aviation honor, the usaf museum.

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

I'll add my two cents that I think not only warbirds but sport aviation in general is in trouble. I don't think there are sufficient numbers of young enthusiasts coming along to replace our aging population. It's not something that we can do much about. There's alot of competition out there (internet, TV, video games, etc.) and aviation is no longer a big deal. I have three boys, all grown, who were exposed (probably over-exposed) to vintage aviation and flying. None of them got hooked or even close. Other factors, primarily cost and access, will keep many people on the sidelines even if they are interested. There are probably enough air museums out there to satisfy the general populace, who generally don't care much about the old airplanes anyway and wouldn't even notice if they were all parked.

To most of the people in the Memphis area, I think they thought having the "Belle" around was nice as long as they didn't have to pay anything. To most it's just an old airplane; what's the big deal? And you can't blame them. It's their money and their level of interest. Other than taxes, you can't strong arm anyone into paying for something they don't really want or care about. I think the level of funding support is the free enterprise way of saying 'thanks but no thanks.'

For static airplanes, well-run museums with strong foundational support like the Museum of Flight in Seattle will grow and succeed. Quasi-government musuems like the Air Force Museum and NASM will also succeed with foundational support and ocassional tax subsidy injection.

For flyers, the small band of private owners who can afford to operate the ex-military fighters and bombers will continue to do so, and there will remain a small and stable market to pass these airplanes along to other similarly-resourced individuals for continued operation into the indefinite future. The flying museums will continue, enjoying a measure of success as long as there are people willing to participate and fund those efforts. I would expect things to move along pretty much as they have in the last decade as restorations become better and better and more and more expensive. The owners and operators make up a pretty small club and it will probably get smaller and cost much more to join. I would expect, though, for there to remain a shrinking but very enthusiastic group of people with a great deal of interest in seeing and reading about these airplanes to keep the industry alive.

But I don't think it's a bright future and don't expect interest in warbirds to increase above its current level.

Were it not for some concerned citizens in Memphis at the end of the war, there would be no "Memphis Belle" it would have been another Aluminum ingot,and an image on an old film.

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"WHAT ME WORRY?"

You're absolutely right 86. The USAF and the Navy weren't too worried about preserving their own history at the time. Hap Arnold tried but the rare aircraft in storage were unceremoniously scrapped whith a bulldozer when they thought floor space was needed to reopen a production line for Korea. The space was never needed but the planes were still gone. Only a few aircraft at Pensacola or Dayton were saved early by the respective services. Most of what they have was saved by individuals or was resurected from recovered scrap by craftsmen. The F-2HP Banshee recce comes to mind. Rescued from a playground, its fuselage and cockpit full of concrete.

Most of our treasures were saved by one or two foresighted individuals. Frank Kurz, Paul Garber, Ed Maloney come to mind. Some saved one, some saved many.

A few people in Memphis did step up at the time, they stepped up again when they put her out on Mud Island, a few more stepped up and tried to make progress while the long term issues were worked out. They have an empty hangar for their troubles. If it wasn't for the people of Memphis, the USAFM wouldn't have this important aircraft to put on display at Dayton.

I saw something in an older book that I bought the other day,
Lancaster at War, that shocked me.

Guy Gibson's Lancaster that he flew in the Dams Raid survived the war. There's a picture of it in the book, taken in 1947, still in RAF service and still with the same codes. Tragically, it was unceremoniously scrapped when not needed anymore.

I'm very glad the Belle is still with us.