All museums into one

cooper9411 · **Posted:** Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:09 pm

Sometimes the aircraft at smaller out of the way "museums" are more enjoyable to visit. You can at least take the time to look the aircraft over completely and if you wanted to you could take great pictures without having to wait for people to move out of the way, and the museum officials could probably take the time to share the history of a particular aircraft. :drink3:

Pat Carry · **Posted:** Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:51 pm

old iron wrote:

I have been to the Harold Warp Museum. It is a fine collection of a lot of everything - cars, tractors, household effects. Sort of a mini-Smithsonian. It is a monument to a person - Harold Warp - who valued these things when noone else did, and preserved many things that noone else would. This collection deserves to remain intact. Sure, the P-59 could go to the Intrepid and be seen by many more people, and Harold Warp might be just a name on the placard, if that.

The Shelburne Museum in Vermont is a similar collection, though including no airplanes. A rich little lady - Electra Webb - was collecting Americana from scrap heaps at a time when her friends thought she was absolutely CRAZY. Imagine, preserving the last of the old Great Lakes ferrys when for the same money she could have bought a Rembrant painting! The museum is an incredible collection, but also a monument to one person's foresight.

NASM has Paul Garber, who tagged so many things that would otherwise have been lost. At the time when he was setting these things aside - 1930s in particular - there was noone else consciously preserving aircraft in the United States (except the Henry Ford Museum). The whole National Air and Space Museum is a monument to this Man; without him NASM would not exist (does the Smithsonian have a ship or car or war museum?). Some of the things he picked up now seem wildly eccentric, but they had prospects for a future when collected. You have to see these together to appreciate the eye of a truly visionary collector.

The collections of such singular people should remain where they are. There are other P-59 and R-4 helicopters - most of the major museums have one or the other if not both. Harold Warp are HIS, and being where they are they are remarkably original and have been kept under cover and on display for many decades (I saw the Warp collection in the 1970s). Why should they go to some place that lacked it own Harold Warp? Let those places build their own replicas!

The Smithsonian does not have dedicated museum buidings for just ships, cars or war. However each of these items can be seen in the Smithsonian American History Museum on the mall in Washington DC. When I was there a few years ago the greatest military item on display by far was a uniform worn by someone named George Washington. They also have the gunboat Philadelphia built during the revolutionary war. Its my understanding their collection of military items is so vast it could fill up a large size building but that will never happen given the costs involved. I suspect a great many items will be going to the Natl Museum of the US Army when it opens in a few years. The Smithsonian is also the keeper of the 1,000's of momentos that have been left at the Vietnam Memorial since it opened. That collection alone could fill an entire building I'm told. A few 100 of those momentos were on display at the Smithsonian when we were there. That was very moving.

JohnB · **Posted:** Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:55 pm

old iron wrote:

That they should all go to the big-city or big-mil-base museums is eletist.

No, it's praactical. Go to the Museum's site and they announce they've had 5 million visitors since 1953. That's not a lot....about 100,000 a year.
And of those 5 million, how many stopped to look at the P-59 and R-4.
The answer: not many.

Nothing against the Warp, but they're not being seen by people who would apprecaite them

Okay, WIX'ers...how many of YOU have traveled off the beaten path to look at the them?

It's the same with other items, if I had a historic Indy car, I'd like it shown at the Speedway museum where it could stand with others of it's types and show progress being made. Having the P-59 next to a vintage Farmall tractor isn't educating anyone.

It isn't a rich-poor or city-rural thing. For a plane that rare, it needs to be set in context, not among "Little House on the Prairie" style artifacts.
I think a professional curator would agree with me.
Just becasue Warp bought the plane at a surplus auction for a few hundred dollars doesn't mean it's the best place for it. At one time or another, nearly all historic artifacts were considered worthless. Does that mean a copy of the Declaration of Independence should stay in granny's shoebox in the closet because she "saved" it when she bought it at a yard sale in 1900? Of course not.

Again, we're not talking a T-33 here. The P-59 and R-5 need to be in a proper aviation museum, not some roadside attraction with a one room school house and antique barbershop.

Jollygreenslugg · **Posted:** Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:06 pm

John, I respectfully disagree.

In the case of publicly-owned warbirds, or any historical assets for that matter, the case for 'maximum benefit and viewability' could apply. For privately-owned items, it's completely up to the owner. I don't know anything about the P-59 and R-4 in that particular museum, but if they were purchased by a someone who freely used their money, then nobody else has a say. Even a junker purchased from a scrap sale is only still around by virtue of the purchaser making the choice to buy it.

I'm certainly not singling anyone out, but here in Australia, there are people who argue that 'the greater historic good' means that the intent or wishes of the person who spent their own hard-earned should be secondary. No way. For me, the social history of these aircraft is such that they can't be taken in isolation. The social reality of these two aircraft is such that their existence is dependant upon the person who bought them, and that person's wishes are paramount. As far as private property goes, the one who pays the bills, calls the shots.

Anyway, where do we draw the line? How rare does an aircraft need to before it is argued that it should be taken elsewhere? One survivor? Five? Twenty? Percentage-related?

Cheers,
Matt

Steve T · **Posted:** Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:47 pm

I've never seen the Warp museum aircraft; have never even been in Nebraska. However I tend to defer to those who long ago had the foresight to keep something they could more easily have discarded. Here's a prime example from Canada:

This Fokker D.VII has been housed in this small building at the Brome County Historical Society Museum in Knowlton/Lac-Brome, Quebec, since 1922. It is one of a substantial number of war-prize D.VIIs that came to Canada in 1919-20; most were offered to universities, museums, et cetera...but only the museum at Knowlton took and kept one. Now it takes quite a bit of driving (scenic, but still lengthy) to get there; but where else can one see a D.VII wearing its original fabric, and proudly on show since it was only four years old?? There could have been lots of others. Only the Knowlton folks took the opportunity. They've been made good offers for the Fokker many times. I hope they never accept!

There are many other examples of the same thing happening in out-of-the-way locations. Walt Soplata, of course, comes to mind; and an excellent example with direct connection to this forum is the Maude family's Kittyhawk (and the two Bolingbrokes George also secured in 1946, both of which are in Canadian museums) on Vancouver Island.

S.

Jollygreenslugg · **Posted:** Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:12 am

I suppose that my views are based on what I've seen in Australia. I had the privilege of being welcomed to the home of Harold, Verna and Alan Thomas, of the Camden Museum of Aviation. Founded by Harold Thomas (one of Charles Kingsfor-Smith's apprentices) in the early-1960s, Harold recovered a number of rare aircraft from different sources, including trade schools. He did this when they were considered scrap and of little value. As interest in warbirds grew, people came along and suggested that some of the aircraft would be better off elsewhere. This was especially true of the museum's Vultee Vengeance, the only complete example in the world. "It belongs in the USAF museum" was a commonly-heard comment.

Well, no, it doesn't. The USAF museum weren't the ones who saved it, nor did they save any of the other machines. Harold and Verna, and their son Alan did. These people ensured that the aircraft involved would survive, and without them, the aircraft would almost certainly have been scrapped. People came and offered money, along with plenty of 'good ideas', but the collection remained complete. Their plans and intentions for these rare aircraft are what determined their future.

My visits to the museum and meals with the Thomas family remain highlights of my time with historic aviation. Their thoughts as shared over the years have helped to form my own attitudes.

Cheers,
Matt

Enemy Ace · **Posted:** Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:32 pm

Why are we replying to (the OP) and the thread by Ploesti? no wonder wix is heading down the crapper.

*mod edit - no personal attacks please, folks*

muddyboots · **Posted:** Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:56 pm

tell us how you really feel, EA. :lol:

Ploesti · **Joined:** Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:26 am **Posts:** 152

Enemy Ace wrote:

Why are we replying to *** and the thread by Ploesti? no wonder wix is heading down the crapper.

I don't know, why are you? ... BTW great post, posts like yours certainly help WIX be a great place to come learn and share. :roll:

old iron · **Posted:** Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:14 pm

Quote:

Enemy Ace wrote:
Why are we replying to *** and the thread by Ploesti? no wonder wix is heading down the crapper.

Ploesti replies:
I don't know, why are you? ... BTW great post, posts like yours certainly help WIX be a great place to come learn and share.

Yes, who is the *term removed* (and what does that word even mean, or should I ask?).

WIX works wells with gppd discussion of diverse views, and "heads down the crapper" when someone throws insults without adding anythng to the discussion...

So let us get back on track.

Baldeagle · **Posted:** Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:00 pm

Harold Warp's Pioneer Village http://www.pioneervillage.org/ is one of the neatest places I've ever been (went last August).

This is like some of the arguments about color schemes, he bought them and can (could) do what he wants with them. If somebody else managed to buy them they could paint them whatever color they want and put them wherever they want.

Until then they belong in Minden, along with the Jenny, Curtiss Pusher, Pitcairn Autogiro, Swallow, and the others.

How many people who go through NASM appreciate the Jenny or any of the lesser known aircraft there? Not many.

-

brucev · **Posted:** Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:13 am

Baldeagle wrote:

Harold Warp's Pioneer Village http://www.pioneervillage.org/ is one of the neatest places I've ever been (went last August).

This is like some of the arguments about color schemes, he bought them and can (could) do what he wants with them. If somebody else managed to buy them they could paint them whatever color they want and put them wherever they want.

Until then they belong in Minden, along with the Jenny, Curtiss Pusher, Pitcairn Autogiro, Swallow, and the others.

How many people who go through NASM appreciate the Jenny or any of the lesser known aircraft there? Not many.

-

this X2

Be interesting to compare attendance at Pioneer Village to the Strategic Air & Space Museum also in Nebraska (near Ashland). Anecdotaly (SP?) from my once per yr visit I'd say attendance at the SASM is thin at best and many of the visitors appear to wander over from the state park next door.
How many of these visitors can really appreciate the aircraft on display? Who cares? And if all they want to see is "some cool old airplanes" still, who cares?

Bcook · **Joined:** Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:11 am **Posts:** 29

Just thinking outside the box.
I say maybe market air museums like big box retail stores.
All museums join together.
Then start selling franchises.

Thanks for the insults.

the330thbg · **Joined:** Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:06 pm **Posts:** 2713

should be quite an easy task based on the results of deciding where to base the CAF.., guess it depends on where the people in charge reside.

Kelly AFB or Midland TX? :shock:

Steve T · **Posted:** Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:28 pm

I have to tip the hat to the Thomas family as well: the Camden museum preserved not one, but two Fireflies...and that's the reason there's now a Firefly in the museum (CWH) near me...it came from Camden in 1979 as a replacement for the first (also ex-RAN) Firefly that was tragically lost in a 1977 airshow crash.

There ought to be a book--replete with lots of photos--commemorating the work of all the early vintage aircraft visionaries...

S.

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