Any P-40 experts care to comment on this image?

[51fixer]

Those with a serious interest as to the Kittyhawk's future know the coordinates.

The arrogance you display and your disdain for other people's opinions and comments, on this board and others, continues to amaze me.

Did it ever occur to you that there might be other people with the means and interest to recover this airplane, beyond whatever club you obviously think you belong to?

It is in a country that has developed significant bureaucratic levels of gov for dealing with historic items.
I doubt that this can be collected without gov approval unless you steal it.
Those who have an interest and means are probably going through gov channels to try to recover it.
It will probably take some time to get an approval, maybe years.
In the meantime it might get destroyed.
There is the possibility that the initial photos we have been able to see will be the highpoint of this discovery.

[Shay]

Shay, I'm not sure why the Moderator on the FP site removed AWOT's Co-ordinates. Seems he thinks it's okay for egyption truck drivers to know where it is, but not anyone with an interest in preserving historic aircraft. Or, it is an English site, perhaps he thinks the RAFM should have the rights. Either way it's insulting to the members. Would you be prepared to post them here? I put your 13 miles off track, LG009(185) to LG100 and cross referenced it to the southwesterly heading from LG106. I estimated an airspeed of 150 kts, with an endurance of about 2 hrs. Certainly puts it in the New Valley Area. Can you confirm that the 13 mile track error is North of Track?

43-2195 I hear where you're coming from. To be honest I was shocked when AWOT posted the coordinates. With only 2 post's to his credit and with inside information like that I have to wonder how close to these events he is?

I'm reluctant repost any coordinate information (I'm sure it can be found cached somewhere). My reasons are this: Those with the where-with-all to do anything are few and far between and most likely don't need my help anyways as they'll have there own channels. 2ndly and more importantly in my mind is that the desert may be vast but it's it highly traveled. Just look at google earth and you'll see tons of folks traveling in their expedition rigs recreationally posting their adventure's pictures. A downed P-40 wreck site this intact would be a popular destination and would inveitably hasten the deterioration of the Kittyhawk. To my surprise people have posted pics of their travels within miles of the wrecksite. So people have been nearby on several occasions. The point that it is located on military installation doesn't fill me with confidence that it is safe from explorer types. I seriously doubt there is a well maintain perimeter fence if there is one at all. I should comment that some expedition types only explore and do no harm but I have seen pictures of wrecks over the years that have been slowly whittled down by souvenier hunters. I can't in good faith do anything that I feel would contribute to that. If I posted the coordinates and then next week the next pictures I see is that someone has chainsawed the entire kittyhawk, I would feel at least in some small way responsible.

Sorry to be a Douche but that's how I feel. If it's really that important perhaps someone will give it to you privately.

Shay
____________
Semper Fortis

[StangStung]

^^^
Decidedly not douchey. Smart.

[old iron]

Did it ever occur to you that there might be other people with the means and interest to recover this airplane, beyond whatever club you obviously think you belong to?

There can be no better home for this than either the Imperial War Museum or the RAF Museum, and I think one or another of these is already working towards retrieval. The last thing we need is some group of American Cowboys to sweep in and really muddy the waters. This belongs in one of the big national UK museums and the rest of us should be lending support to that destination.

[43-2195]

Old Iron, In 1991 I sat in the cockpit of a Ki-46 Dinah at Numundo Plantation(New Britain,Papua New Guinea), moved the rudder pedals and rested my hand on the throttle quadrant, That wreck was complete from Tail Fin stern post to the tip of the nose(and from wingtip to wingtip). Today it is a 5 ft square chunk of aluminium comprising only the wing centre section. And PNG has strict laws to preserve wartime artifacts. I agree with you where the RAF P-40 should end up. But my experience suggests that we should welcome with open arms; American cowboys, Canadian conmen, Australian circus clowns, anyone who has the passion and the MONEY to make things happen. I have for over 20 years observed the laws of Papua New Guinea and I have some beautiful photos of aeroplanes that no longer exist.

[Mark Allen M]

Old Iron, In 1991 I sat in the cockpit of a Ki-46 Dinah at Numundo Plantation(New Britain,Papua New Guinea), moved the rudder pedals and rested my hand on the throttle quadrant, That wreck was complete from Tail Fin stern post to the tip of the nose(and from wingtip to wingtip). Today it is a 5 ft square chunk of aluminium comprising only the wing centre section. And PNG has strict laws to preserve wartime artifacts. I agree with you where the RAF P-40 should end up. But my experience suggests that we should welcome with open arms; American cowboys, Canadian conmen, Australian circus clowns, anyone who has the passion and the MONEY to make things happen. I have for over 20 years observed the laws of Papua New Guinea and I have some beautiful photos of aeroplanes that no longer exist.

+1

[Mark_Pilkington]

Those with a serious interest as to the Kittyhawk's future know the coordinates.

The arrogance you display and your disdain for other people's opinions and comments, on this board and others, continues to amaze me.

Did it ever occur to you that there might be other people with the means and interest to recover this airplane, beyond whatever club you obviously think you belong to?

And those who "seriously" have the means and interest such as Paul Allen, Kermit Weeks etc if they were interested - would already be flying into Egypt in their private jets along with a fist full of dollars and an army of recovery employees and already negotiating with the Egyptian Military for access along with the RAFM or anyone else.

They WONT be sitting at home watching their PC screens and waiting for GPS co-ordinates to be posted so they can try to Google Earth it and then go off to recover it.

There is no benefit to the future saving of this P-40 in having its GPS co-ordinates posted for "local" scavengers, souvenir hunters or "midnight motor" parts dealers or even scrappies or "get rich quick" merchants to drop in for a visit and pick it clean, or for the rest of us online elsewhere to satisfy our curiosity.

Just so there's no mis-understanding, I too support this aircraft being conserved/preserved "as is" and not being consumed into an airworthy outcome, and I too support it being displayed in a UK national collection such as the RAFM or IWM/Duxford, or remaining in an Egyptian Museum ie near its battlefield.

The Warbird industry can punch out most of a P-40 from new metal, theres nothing stopping another "P-40 from flying" even if this one is taken "off the market".

regards

Mark Pilkington

[Wildchild]

Old Iron, In 1991 I sat in the cockpit of a Ki-46 Dinah at Numundo Plantation(New Britain,Papua New Guinea), moved the rudder pedals and rested my hand on the throttle quadrant, That wreck was complete from Tail Fin stern post to the tip of the nose(and from wingtip to wingtip). Today it is a 5 ft square chunk of aluminium comprising only the wing centre section. And PNG has strict laws to preserve wartime artifacts.

Thats not preserving thats letting it rot to the ground.

They think they have the right to stop anyone from taking those aircraft, when its not there aircraft at all. If those japanese planes belong to anyone, its the U.S. Governemnt (They recieved all the japanese aircraft in the peace treaty), and if not them, the Japanese Government. They have no say in this, yet they claim those planes are there's so they can make money off of the tourist industry. While they barely have any airfeilds, much less the equipment to get to the wrecks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZLRHpIEDaQ (1:25)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKbV4sSP ... ure=fvwrel (Soloman island, but it apply's)

[JDK]

They think they have the right to stop anyone from taking those aircraft, ...

They don't 'think'. Legally, the local government does have the right.

I'm not qualified to outline the nature of the laws that apply - a bit of research isn't too hard, if less satisfying than us telling each other how things ought to be.

Just because some facts don't fit with some of our preferred worldviews doesn't override them. We can all tell each other how things ought to be, or who 'should' do what, but at the end of the day that's just noise, and often simply inaccurate noise as well.

Real preservation is measured by achievement, and mostly by those who manage to achieve their results by working with the locals and with the law. (Others don't do any of us favours for the future, however successful they may be in the short term.) What doesn't get any airtime on WIX (and other forums) is that much of the best work is undertaken by those who build relations with those they wish to deal with and work in a context of respect.

It remains the axiom that if you don't respect others (however much you may feel that is justified) you certainly aren't going to be respected - and treated respectfully - in return.

Respectfully,

[groundpounder]

It remains the axiom that if you don't respect others (however much you may feel that is justified) you certainly aren't going to be respected - and treated respectfully - in return.

Respectfully,


I smell a liberal.......

[JDK]

Really? No, just wrong, and the wrong thing to try and bring in.

Politics - It has become evident that discussions of a political nature cannot be done in an objective fashion about this subject that people are so passionate about. So, unfortunately, political discussion is prohibited as of March 19, 2007. You have been warned, so anybody who posts a political post or baits a political discussion will be banned for 30 days, repeat offenders will be banned permanently.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5

I'm sorry some people don't like some of the posts I've made here. My experience and involvement in warbirds is listed below in my autosignature. My comments remain factually based, and can certainly be challenged and changed with facts and cogent argument, not cheap and inaccurate remarks about 'clubs' or political shots. I've no interest in anonymous attacks, or (yet again) attempts to divert discussions off warbirds and aviation preservation into racist or nationalistic or political point scoring.

Play the ball, not the man...

Yours,

[WIXMOD-Baker]

Play the ball, not the man...

Indeed. Any more personal attacks (which are in direct violation of the Rules of Conduct) will be dealt with accordingly.

For those who may not understand the above expression, I'll re-phrase it. Please discuss the issue, don't attack other members.

Keep it civil, please.

[43-2195]

They WONT be sitting at home watching their PC screens and waiting for GPS co-ordinates to be posted so they can try to Google Earth it and then go off to recover it.

But my experience suggests that we should welcome with open arms; American cowboys, Canadian conmen, Australian circus clowns, anyone who has the passion and the MONEY to make things happen. I have for over 20 years observed the laws of Papua New Guinea and I have some beautiful photos of aeroplanes that no longer exist.

JDK, My post did not condone circumventing the laws of any nation. And nothing will be achieved if the correct processes are not followed. However it was private money and passionate individuals who recovered the P-39 from the Russian Lake and the "Swamp Ghost" from a PNG swamp.

Mark, Both the P-39 and B-17 are going into Museums, not back into the air.

JDK, Laws are created with a distinct purpose in mind. In PNG the "War Surplus Materiels Act" was introduced in the 1950's(by an Australian Administration) to put an end to widespread post war scrapping and preserve wartime artifacts for the future. In the 21st century, the very same law prevents would be preservationists from "interferring" with wartime wrecks, but does not prosecute the PNG citizens that scrap/vandalise those very same wrecks. Just because we are legally bound to abide by the law, doesn't always mean that it is a good(one which achieve's it's aim) law.

Mark, I have been in three different countries since I first posted on this thread. I know two Australian sheep station owners who are members of this Forum, as well as several property developers and a number of Airline pilots(like myself) who are members. I know a P-47 owner, 3 P-40 owners and a P-51 owner(syndicated, I think) who definitely read this forum and are probably registered members. So I think stereotyping a WIX member, would be a mistake.

We are all dissappointed that vandlism has occurred on the "Desert Sentinel" and we are all even more concerned that further vandalism will take place. That is why we are all waiting eagerly for some authority to take action and save the aircraft. Mark(Shepsair) tells us the RAFM is acting, but that it takes time and we need to be patient. Egypt has alot more problems at the moment than just this P-40. Couldn't we, the WIX members offer funding to the El Alemein War Museum to professionally recover the aircraft. That way any red tape would be egyptian to egyptian, with no foreign influence. How much could such a recovery cost? Trucks, fuel, workers, food, accomodation, all for one week ........$30,000. Once the machine is safely in the museums custody, then negotiations for it's future could begin. At least we would be doing something constructive.

Last edited by 43-2195 on Wed May 09, 2012 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[43-2195]

And just in case you feel inspired and wish to act, here are some contacts for you;

Embassy of Egypt(Melbourne) 03 96141888
Embassy of Egypt(Washington) 202 8955400
Embassy of Egypt(London) 020 74993304

[JDK]

Thanks for your post!

JDK, My post did not condone circumventing the laws of any nation.

Sorry, I wasn't suggesting your post did, and...

Just because we are legally bound to abide by the law, doesn't always mean that it is a good(one which achieve's it's aim) law.

I'd be a fool if I thought all laws were 'good' by being a law. Again, there seems to be a misunderstanding that by presenting an unvarnished fact that I must agree with it or approve; in this case, as 43-2195, I agree we have a law that is counter to the best interest of preservation, and effectively remuneration and reward to those in PNG with an interest in the wrecks. But it's still the law.

(Just because I prefer facts over wishing and don't winge doesn't mean I like the facts.)

And nothing will be achieved if the correct processes are not followed. However it was private money and passionate individuals who recovered the P-39 from the Russian Lake and the "Swamp Ghost" from a PNG swamp.

Indeed. And let's remember it was the RAAF that recovered a bunch of A-20s and Bostons and restored two which are now on display, one on a promise to return to PNG under suitable circumstances. Both private enterprise and official bodies can and have had roles to play with preservation. I think two following good points are that the days of 'pirate' or imperial recoveries are over, and that today best chance is a public-private partnership, of some degree.

Mark, I have been in three different countries since I first posted on this thread. I know two Australian sheep station owners who are members of this Forum, as well as several property developers and a number of Airline pilots(like myself) who are members. I know a P-47 owner, 3 P-40 owners and a P-51 owner(syndicated, I think) who definitely read this forum and are probably registered members. So I think stereotyping a WIX member, would be a mistake.

We are all three well aware of the diversity of membership from personal experience - but WIX simply isn't necessary to provide data like a co-ordinate; as I said earlier, those that need (really want) to know that data can get it; I don't have it, but any serious request to me (or several others here) would (as it has in the past) get my best help, and data such as those co-ordinates.

We are all dissappointed that vandlism has occurred on the "Desert Sentinel" and we are all even more concerned that further vandalism will take place.

Absolutely agreed.

Couldn't we, the WIX members offer funding to the El Alemein War Museum to professionally recover the aircraft. That way any red tape would be egyptian to egyptian, with no foreign influence. How much could such a recovery cost? Trucks, fuel, workers, food, accomodation, all for one week ........$30,000. Once the machine is safely in the museums custody, then negotiations for it's future could begin. At least we would be doing something constructive.

It's a good idea. WIX has an excellent track record up to a point (I'm thinking of 'Old 927's guns) but I suspect it's a degree of magnitude too big. But having said that, I'd be prepared to pitch in with formal support and some cash. I'd like to see all those who've been keen to critique the locals and other WIX posters prove money where mouths are and do the same. I'd like to hear what Mark (Shepsair) may have to say, and if there is any way of smoothing the progress to getting the aircraft protected pro-tem.

Regards,

Last edited by JDK on Wed May 09, 2012 6:39 am, edited 1 time in total.