Any P-40 experts care to comment on this image?

[CDF]

G'day folks,

What about this time capsule ship , the pilot still remains MIA

Frankly, I think it's a disgrace. And I say this, having known some of the people involved for over twenty-five years.

Cheers,
Matt

Indeed, another example of the pursuit of the almighty $ instead of the MIA
http://www.smh.com.au/world/once-were-w ... -bx9f.html

[Mark Allen M]

They WONT be sitting at home watching their PC screens and waiting for GPS co-ordinates to be posted so they can try to Google Earth it and then go off to recover it.

Mark, I have been in three different countries since I first posted on this thread. I know two Australian sheep station owners who are members of this Forum, as well as several property developers and a number of Airline pilots(like myself) who are members. I know a P-47 owner, 3 P-40 owners and a P-51 owner(syndicated, I think) who definitely read this forum and are probably registered members. So I think stereotyping a WIX member, would be a mistake.

43-2195, I've been in three different hotel rooms since I first posted on this thread (and not one was a Holiday Inn Express mind you) and I fortunately don't know any sheep for fear of getting a bad reputation I too am a property developer and a pilot and both stereotype me as one who is foolish with his money these days. I know a Piper cub owner, 3 Cessna 172 owners and a good barber (bilingual, I think) who definitely never read this or any other warbird forum

Even though your a little long winded, I agree with several of your points. I'm assuming the Mark you are refering your comments to is the Pilkington Mark fellow, not the Mark Allen M Mark fellow (me). You're quoting the wrong Mark up there. I didn't type those words and probably wouldn't anyway, (too tame lol). I'm a reformed WIXer now who would never stereotype a WIX member unless I knew without a doubt I could get away with it lol.

So I think quoting the wrong WIX member, would be a mistake. (funnin ya)

Sincerely,

Mark Allen M

[Mark Allen M]

Couldn't we, the WIX members offer funding to the El Alemein War Museum to professionally recover the aircraft. That way any red tape would be egyptian to egyptian, with no foreign influence. How much could such a recovery cost? Trucks, fuel, workers, food, accomodation, all for one week ........$30,000. Once the machine is safely in the museums custody, then negotiations for it's future could begin. At least we would be doing something constructive.

It's a good idea. WIX has an excellent track record up to a point (I'm thinking of 'Old 927's guns) but I suspect it's a degree of magnitude too big. But having said that, I'd be prepared to pitch in with formal support and some cash. I'd like to see all those who've been keen to critique the locals and other WIX posters prove money where mouths are and do the same. I'd like to hear what Mark (Shepsair) may have to say, and if there is any way of smoothing the progress to getting the aircraft protected pro-tem.

Regards,

(Nothing here directed toward JDK)

One thing I've actually learned over the past few years is to shut my mouth to things I have no knowledge or background. WIX is where I go to learn about what I enjoy to learn, not a place I go to preach to others of what I have no knowledge or experience. Those of you who do have experience and knowledge in such areas as this threads topic I encourage you to participate with possible solutions. I'll sit back and watch what happens with this "Desert Sentinal" from those of you who know what your talking about. If a wonderful and logical idea comes forward that could use some financial help I'd be more than willing to listen. Until then it's all blowing sand.

... and BTW 43-2195 if you indeed know those Warbird heavy-hitters, developers and sheep owners so well, maybe you could ask them to offer some funding as well. Just a thought

[43-2195]

Sorry Mark Allen M, not sure how your Name got at the top of that quote, I was refering to Mark Pilkington's post.

I've edited the original post to attribute the quote to the correct member.

Awaiting Shepsairs next post for any deterioration in the situation, or update of RAFM's approach.

[Mark Allen M]

Sorry Mark Allen M, not sure how your Name got at the top of that quote, I was refering to Mark Pilkington's post.

I've edited the original post to attribute the quote to the correct member.

Not a problem. Now lets get back to saving that P-40

[Mark_Pilkington]

They WONT be sitting at home watching their PC screens and waiting for GPS co-ordinates to be posted so they can try to Google Earth it and then go off to recover it.

Sorry Mark Allen M, not sure how your Name got at the top of that quote, I was refering to Mark Pilkington's post.

I've edited the original post to attribute the quote to the correct member.

Awaiting Shepsairs next post for any deterioration in the situation, or update of RAFM's approach.

Yes, I note you were quoting my words and apparantly incorrectly attributing them to someone else, thanks for correcting that in your original quoted post as well, I'm not quite sure how that can happen?, given quote tags are automatically system generated.

Mark, I have been in three different countries since I first posted on this thread. I know two Australian sheep station owners who are members of this Forum, as well as several property developers and a number of Airline pilots(like myself) who are members. I know a P-47 owner, 3 P-40 owners and a P-51 owner(syndicated, I think) who definitely read this forum and are probably registered members. So I think stereotyping a WIX member, would be a mistake.

However I also note you have above then gone on to apparantly accuse? me of "stereotyping a wix member" (or members?)?

I assume with my comment/opinion that serious pursuers/recoverers of this P-40, with the means/resources to do it will not still be sitting behind their PC screens waiting for GPS co-ordinates to be released, but instead will already be actively progressing negotiations.

- I stand by that view, those with the resources to do so will already be pursuing it, and will PM the sources direct if they want/need the GPS co-ordinates, and be already actively engaged with people in Egypt, they certainly WONT be still stilling in front of their PC screens thinking about it and waiting for someone to publicly post GPS co-ordinates.

The line you quote is taken out of context of the post it sits in and the line that immediately preceeds it:

And those who "seriously" have the means and interest such as Paul Allen, Kermit Weeks etc if they were interested - would already be flying into Egypt in their private jets along with a fist full of dollars and an army of recovery employees and already negotiating with the Egyptian Military for access along with the RAFM or anyone else.

They WONT be sitting at home watching their PC screens and waiting for GPS co-ordinates to be posted so they can try to Google Earth it and then go off to recover it.

That goes for Paul Allen, Kermit Weeks as well as all the sheep station owners, property developers, and airline pilots you might know as WIX Members, and regardless of how many P-47s or P-51's that they may already own?, and I'm certainly not stereo-typing any of them? - I fail to see where I have done so?



My quote comes from this post, and I dont shy away from anything I stated in it, and happily stand behind it.

http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=45278&start=345#p457202

It is a comment made primarily to bombardier29 in context and quoting his response to an earlier post by JDK, and in summary my statements are supporting the comments by JDK and disagreeing with those by bombardier29 in regards to the public release of the GPS co-ordinates, I can find nothing in it that impunes or stereo-types WIX members?, or bombardier29 personally?


As my post went on to say there is no need for those with the GPS co-ordinates to provide them to the rest of us, and they can release them privately and directly to whom ever they choose, in that way I am supportive of the comments made by Shay himself as to why he removed the co-ordinates from his post.

Those with the "resources" would simply approach Shay via PM directly.

I was certainly not making any comment at all on WIX members generally or specifically or even personally on those I was replying to, or stereotyping them. (I'm a WIX member myself) and am sure lots of capable and well resourced people are members or viewers of WIX and other forums.

The point I was, and am making, is that they dont sit around waiting for posts to online forums to finally deliver such information and opportunities to them on a plate.

Its nearly a month since photos first surfaced on the web of this discovery, and 3 months since its discovery in February and apparant approaches to and notification to the RAFM, there has been confirmation of a number of people returning to the site, and clear statements its under the supervision of the Egyptian Military. On the KP forum there is even briefings being released by those associated with the RAFM project.

Surely anyone with the real resources to pursue this, and the intention to do so, would be already deeply progressed in that process if they honestly expected to be first on the scene and able to finally secure control of it.

If there are multiple parties already negotiating with the Egyptian Government then thats up to the Egyptians to resolve, but if someones still sitting at their PC right now, having to wait for GPS co-ordinates to be made public on WIX and then still pondering if they "might" pursue it, then I dont think they can really be described as seriously "having the resources".


The Russian P-39 and B-17 Swamp Ghost you point to as examples are not projects that relied on discovery and information to be publicised on WIX or KP forums to have the people involved achieve those outcomes, as far as I am aware of?, and those were seriously resourced projects with years of planning and onsite negotiations.

While I support a RAFM/IWM recovery and conservation in this instance, I certainly appreciate the efforts and recoveries by private collectors of items such as the Russian P-39 and B-17 Swamp Ghost, which otherwise would be un-recovered, suffering further deterioration and the constant risk of scrapping and loss.

But in addition to first confusing "Mark Allen M" and "myself" in terms of quoting "my" words, I also think you are confusing my "opinions" and my "comments" in "my" posts with those made by others such as "old iron" relating to "American Cowboys" in their posts etc that you have seperately been replying to.

Hence I do think you are creating a "cross-over" of the multiple discussions you seem to be engaging in? and attributing and linking the words and opinions of "others" to my "quote" and "me" (or earlier to "Mark Allen M")

But my experience suggests that we should welcome with open arms; American cowboys, Canadian conmen, Australian circus clowns, anyone who has the passion and the MONEY to make things happen. I have for over 20 years observed the laws of Papua New Guinea and I have some beautiful photos of aeroplanes that no longer exist.

I actually agree with your above statement entirely, but have never used those terms or sentiments, and I assume this might be what you are referring as stereo-typing, but those comments seem to better relate to a pre-existing debate/conversation of posts that you were having with "old iron" and others including "Mark Allen M" that I was not engaged in or replying to, and appear to have no relevence to the words you quote from me, or my post they come from?

I think you previously replied in a similar way to this post by "old iron" who himself was also replying to bombardier29s quoted reply to JDK, however that is where the similarity and commonality with me stops.

Did it ever occur to you that there might be other people with the means and interest to recover this airplane, beyond whatever club you obviously think you belong to?

There can be no better home for this than either the Imperial War Museum or the RAF Museum, and I think one or another of these is already working towards retrieval. The last thing we need is some group of American Cowboys to sweep in and really muddy the waters. This belongs in one of the big national UK museums and the rest of us should be lending support to that destination.

I certainly made no similar comment in my earlier post against the private collectors or restorers, other than to express support for this aircraft to conserved as a static display, rather than consumed into a flying restoration, and simply pointed out that the P-40 restoration industry has the skills to reproduce most of a P-40 from new metal in anycase, so that removing this example from the available market doesnt really limit another flying P-40 restoration.


If you are going to take issue with my, or the comments of others, then certainly correctly attribute the quote to the correct person who made it, but also please also read my comments in context of my entire post and the post it was quoting and replying to, and do not simply use "quotes" out of context and then extract meanings and interpretations from it that do not exist and then attribute or accuse them back to me, particularly if they originate or cross over from concurrent debates with others.

Perhaps if you are an airline pilot travelling through 3 different continents or countries since you last posted I can excuse you for having some jetlag and perhaps screen reading/posting and pasting issues if your accessing WIX via your I-Phone
but please dont put "words in my mouth", and dont put "my" words in "other peoples mouths" - smiles

I certainly reject any suggestion I was stereo-typing anyone in my post.

And yes, lets all get back to encouraging someone to secure the future of this very important and historic wartime artefact.

regards

Mark Pilkington

[The Inspector]

It may just be time to ask the mods to lock this thread unless a few here will allow the rest of us to take down the rope and ask you to please empty your bladders, if you want to go at it then PM each other but you're managing to turn this compelling and mysterious subject into a pi$$ing contest and personally, I'm NOT interested in your petty bickering and mud slinging.

[Mossie]

Sorry, being new to thIs post and being lazy by not reading 25 pages of comments, and just wanting to cut through all the politics that seem to be commented on just lately.

Do we know the name of the pilot yet ?

[shepsair]

Mossie,

Name assumes but still awaiting confirmation.

As for progress, well unless someone on WIX is related to someone in the Egyptian Government, and can circumvent the normal process, it is going to take time - difficult when we know what is gradually happening to the P40.

Will be hitting the UK press Friday/weekend and no doubt to other countries shortly afterwards.

Just posted
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/aviatio ... ahara.html

Obviously too late to take on board my comments!

"front landing gear", "Kittyhawk P40", "Belly flop". Oh well.

Obviously don't really know aircraft and probably had 18 minutes to write it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ds-newsxml

regards

Mark

[Mark_Pilkington]

The article says enough, and the pictures are worth a thousand words in anycase.

Well done!

hopefully the British PM can now be prompted by the press to get involved in this find and increase the diplomatic activity with Egypt, and a recovery actually commence.

Regards

Mark Pilkington

[Mark Allen M]

I actually agree with your above statement entirely, but have never used those terms or sentiments, and I assume this might be what you are referring as stereo-typing, but those comments seem to better relate to a pre-existing debate/conversation of posts that you were having with "old iron" and others including "Mark Allen M" that I was not engaged in or replying to, and appear to have no relevence to the words you quote from me, or my post they come from?

I'm not involved in any debate/conversation with anyone in this thread other than to clear up a mis-quote and that has been achieved and resolved, not a problem and nothing to worry about. Keep up the good conversation and save that airplane

[Mossie]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/aviatio ... ahara.html

Flight Seargant Dennis Copping

God rest his soul. If the Telegraph report is proved to be correct. Poor chap, sheltering under his parachute and wondering whether he would ever make it out alive. What a terrible lonely death.

Priority one is find this poor guy and get him home for a proper burial

[michaelharadon]

Here too:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/1 ... 07828.html

[Randune]

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20 ... -fate?lite

[Shay]

Seeing as word of the Kittyhawk is starting to spread through the media like wildfire, does anyone know has Matt mentioned the topic on Warbird Radio?

Shay
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Semper Fortis