The British "Horsa" glider

[JohnB]

I've been a few of the museums.
Given the very general nature of the question, I gave a very general answer....I saw no need to get "into the weeds" in the land of anoraks.

But it still didn't curb your feeling for the need to post something!

What's your point?
In any event, I provided some information based on my knowledge.
That's more than you did.

I saw no need to give the exact mane of the UK museum since few of you will be headed there to look at the relic.

[Robbo]

Here are some photos from a visit to the Assault Glider Trust a few years ago http://forum.planetalk.net/viewtopic.php?t=5113

[Dave Homewood]

Just a bit of an aside question here. Did US paratroops use British-built gliders for D Day and other assaults/training - either of British or US design?

Or did the USA make their own gliders in America and ship (air tow??) them over to Britain for their own use?

[JDK]

Some really neat contributions to the thread, and great pics - thanks gents.

Dave, there was at least one loaded Waco CG-4 air towed across the Atlantic, as a concept test (Operation Voodoo: http://users.telenet.be/airwareurope/en ... ions_e.htm ) but they were mostly shipped. Both British and US forces used Wacos, and the US used a number of Horsas. The only heavy lift glider in allied hands was the British Hamilcar, which I think was used by both, and intended to deliver either a US or British light tank, though generally they were used in practice for more useful things.

All that's nothing to the variety of odd concept gliders that were actually built (but not used) in most cases, including rotor-winged examples (properly kites) intended from everything from delivering tanks to one-man examples; as well as marine gliders tried by the British and US forces!

Regards,

[JohnB]

Just a bit of an aside question here. Did US paratroops use British-built gliders for D Day and other assaults/training - either of British or US design?

Yes, the USAAF used UK-built Horsas.

Or did the USA make their own gliders in America and ship (air tow??) them over to Britain for their own use?

The WACO designed CG-4A was the primary US assault glider. A number of forms made more than 13,000 CG-4As. As JDK mentions, one was air towed across the Atlantic, most were shipped in a set of three heavy wooden crates. There are stories that postwar, farmers would buy a brand new surplus glider just for the crates it came in. The crates would be turned into outbuildings or broken down for the lumber.
Whether beacuse of its construction methods or simply because more were produced and some never left the USA, there are a number of survivors on display at various museums, including the National Museum of the USAF. Almost 500 of an advanced model, the CG-15, were also produced.

Fun trivia: Cessna did get an order for CG-4As but subcontracted the entire order to nearby Boeing Wichita. While you'd think Cessna would be well suited to build the metal, wood and fabric gliders, instead they were produced in the aisles of the new B-29 factory while newly hired employees were waiting for B-29 production to begin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_CG-4

Last edited by JohnB on Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:34 am, edited 5 times in total.

[JDK]

The Horsa as a home (or caravan) video!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCkzxOcwg_Q

There are stories that postwar, farmers would buy a brand new surplus glider just for the crate it came in. The crates would be turned into ouitbuildings or broken down for the lumber.

Sooo... The real difference between the CG-4 and the Horsa is that one could become a wooden home, the other you used the box it came in as the wooden home...

Regards,

[JohnB]

Sooo... The real difference between the CG-4 and the Horsa is that one could become a wooden home, the other you used the box it came in as the wooden home...
Regards,

Quite.

[Steve Nelson]

The CG-4A now on display at the Kalamazoo Air Zoo was one of those originally bought surplus for the crates. The buyer had took the glider up to some property in Michigan's Upper Peninsula and used the crates to make a hunting cabin, and chucked the glider back in the weeds. 50-odd years later someone contacted the museum saying they'd found what looked like airplane parts in the woods. Off course by then, about all that was left was the steel tube fuselage framing. The Air Zoo recovered that, and was able to find a bunch of NOS wood parts in a cave out west somewhere (I assume someone bought some factory's stock of parts after production shut down, and stashed them for further use..and they were preserved by the dry environment.) Volunteers had to build the plywood wings from scratch..a monumental task, since the aircraft has an 84-foot wingspan. The result is a truly stunning testament to the restorers art..not to mention the testicular fortitude of those who flew/rode them into combat!

Incidentally, the aircraft is painted in the markings of "The Fighting Falcon," a "presentation" aircraft that was purchased with the proceeds of a fundraising drive by the schoolchildren of Greenville, Michigan, where many glider components were built. Michigan's western Lower Peninsula was a center of the furniture industry, and many furniture companies used their expertise in wood and fabric construction to build aircraft parts for the war effort.

Can you tell I used to be a docent at the museum?

Note: this is not my photo, but one I found on the iterwebz. I'm ashamed to say I don't seem to have a decent digital photo of the aircraft.

[Kyleb]

A little off topic, but I'm curious how gliders came to be used as troop delivery vehicles, particularly for the D-day operation. At first glance, it would seem that chucking 15 or so paratroopers out of a C-47 would be a more efficient means of delivery than loading them in a glider and casting them free to glide to a landing.

I do understand that the gliders could carry items that were too large to airdrop, but that's a different issue why not airdrop the troops in, followed 5 minutes later by the gliders carrying field artillery and mortars (or whatever)?

[JDK]

I've got to go shortly, but the quick answer Kyle is "Location, location, location". Bear in mind the British and US airborne forces concept was based on the German success in 1940, but made bigger, them more complex (and diverged later in practice and principle). If you look up the attack on the Belgian fort of Eban Emael as a 'Coup de main', and an attack that was replicated in Normandy by what is now Pegasus Bridge. A Glider should deliver 15 (or 10 in a DFS 230; 30 in the Horsa) troops exactly where you want them; location and precision. A paradrop is good if you are using a lot, to flood an area, but single sticks, even highly trained, a spread in a long line on arrival.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Eben-Emael

HTH!

[Kyleb]

I am familiar with the Eben Emael attack, which was a precison operation, as you noted. Normandy, which was the context of my question, not so much.

I suspect it had as much to do with a decision in 1942 (or whatever) to build a bunch of gliders. By June, 1944, we had gliders so we used 'em, even though they may not have been the ideal way to go to war in that campaign. Also, you didn't have to conduct parachute training for glider troops, so that reduced the number of broken ankles, the training necessary, and the demand for silk...

[shrike]

The decision stemmed largely from lessons learned in the invasion of Crete.
The Germans dropped on Crete, for technical and doctrinal reasons, with only pistols, grenades and submachine guns, while the support weapons - machine guns, mortars and rifles - were dropped in separate canisters. The troops and canisters were scattered more than expected. Some of the weapon cannisters landed closer to the defending forces than the paratroopers, forcing them to fight their way to the weapons to fight their way to the objective.

Putting the troops in gliders not only allows you to be sure of delivering a useful number of them to one spot, but also allows the individual soldiers to be more heavily armed and equipped.

And glider troop training was just as, if not more intensive as paratrooper training. The fighting portion is exactly the same, but the glider troops had to act as impromptu loadmasters as well and have training ina wider variety of available weaponry too. The paratroopers got the glory and the fancy boots. the Glider guys got to sit a little bit longer before getting out of the airplane.

[Enemy Ace]

just wanted to say that this has been an enjoyable thread!!! Thanks all who have posted!!

[Aeronut]

One thing to remember about the Horsa and the larger Hamilcar gliders is that they were designed to be built by companies that hadn't built aircarft before from non-aircraft grade materials. The plywood used was 'Commercial grade' ie lower quality than 'marine grade' and light years away from 'aircraft grade'. Aluminium was almost non existant any metal tended to be sheet steel and in the case of the Hamilcar it was Stainless Steel. The Hamilcar was also the largest wooden aircraft ever built in Britain with a 110 foot wingspan and 7 ton payload.
The Horsa was originally designed to be used by paratroops, being able to carry 25 at a time when the other aircraft used for paratroops could only carry 10.
Being only inteded for a single use the fact that gliders were damaged on landing was immaterial, clipping another glider's wing on landing wasn't an issue just so long as the glider's contents were delivered intact. Photographs of the LZs appear to show a scene of chaos with a litter of broken gliders. This impression is added to by the fact that to unload Jeeps and guns from a Horsa the whole rear fuselage was dropped off and moved to one side. Members of the glider Pilot Regiment were briefed to land in designated areas of the LZ and on the whole they achieved this, even if to stop they had to 'rub' 2 gliders together in lieu of servicible brakes.
Having said that the Horsa could drop paratroops I also believe that the Horsa was the first aircraft to airdrop stores using a roller floor.

[Dave Homewood]

Really interesting stuff. Cheers guys.