Avenger Commentary

[SaxMan]

I picked up an older copy of "Avenger At War" by Barrett Tillman. Yes, the book is dated, but it still is chock full of great info, stories and pictures. I generally like Tillman's writing and this book, while certainly written earlier in his career is no exception.

There is only one part of the book I question, In Tillman's epilogue he makes the following statement:

"But with all the varieties of missions, the Avenger's greatest contribution was undoubtedly in the Atlantic. It's role in defeating the U-boat wolfpacks was an important factor in winning the war in Europe. While other aircraft played prominent parts in the anti-submarine campaign, none of them performed so wide variety of roles as well as the Avenger: detecting, stalking, killing and discouraging U-boats by day and night. Because of escort carriers and their aircraft, sea communications were kept open between the Old World and the New. Otherwise, the Normandy invasion would never have been possible"

What say you, WIXers? Do you agree with Mr. Tillman? If I was English and was looking at World War II from a "Euro-centric" viewpoint, then I think what he says is valid. In terms of sheer numbers, though, carrier aviation in general, and the Avenger in particular were far more active and numerous in the Pacific.

One role that I think often gets overlooked in the Avenger's history is in Korea. While it was relegated to a utility role, the Avenger was vital in flying in supplies and flying out wounded from emergency airstrips during the Chosin Reservoir battle.

[JDK]

Interesting question. The Avenger was a great aircraft. But the Fairey Swordfish was keeping the Atlantic open before the Avenger joined the war, and played a greater part in protecting convoys after than the Avenger ever managed. The Swordfish on the MAC Carriers (that the Avenger was too big to land on) flew with most convoys in the later war, while the Swordfish kept the U Boats down to the war's end, from the deployment of the first escort carriers.

However claiming the Swordfish did that job alone also doesn't wash - they were the first in the Atlantic gap, but the B-24 Liberators, Sunderlands and many others all played a role in keeping the Atlantic lifeline open.

(By the way, 'the English' are NOT 'the British' (watching an American muddling those names to a Scot, Welshman or others of those ilks is always amusing for any bystanders), and the British and the English don't (and certainly in W.W.II did not) see the world from a 'Euro-Centric' point of view. I'm sure the lower-Canadians reading this will understand why this matters. )

It would be hard to disentangle the import of liberating Continental Europe from Britain (and Roosevelt, as persuaded by Churchill's, US view) as the British government's need to simply beat Britain's enemies, the Germans and Italians. How much the Commonwealth / British Empire's members had a say as against the needs of the allies from the occupied countries, is also a reflection of differing agenda (see the broken promises to Poland). Certainly de Gaulle was a pain to Churchill, as well as the foremost advocate for the liberation of France.

Regards,

[JDK]

In terms of sheer numbers, though, carrier aviation in general, and the Avenger in particular were far more active and numerous in the Pacific.

Certainly. Of course 'numerous' is different to 'decisive'.

Another way of addressing Tillman's comments, and your question, is 'Were Avengers decisive in any battle or campaign?' And if so, were there alternatives, or what were the consequences if they were not involved?

Thought provoking, indeed.

Regards,

[GARY HILTON]

Is Mr Tillman English? I do believe that that HMRN did use the Avengers on their carriers, so maybe he was reffering to Avengers in Royal Navy service??? Just a thought...

[SaxMan]

Tillman is American...born in Oregon, IIRC.

JDK poses the best question: What outcomes would have been different if the Avenger wasn't present? Thinking through the Pacific battles, if the TBF/TBMs were replaced by additional SBD/SB2C on board carriers, how many battles would have turned out differently?

One example would be the Battle of the Phillipine Sea. It was an Avenger with additional bomb bay gas tanks that spotted the Japanese fleet for the "mission into darkness". Without that mission, the Japanese strategy at Leyte Gulf may have been different. I don't think it would have changed the outcome of Leyte, but the Japanese would have had two more carriers at their disposal: The Hiyo, sunk at Phillipine Sea and the damaged Zuikaku. Zuikaku did sail in the Leyte Gulf battle but only as "bait" and not as an operational carrier as her wounds from Phillipine Sea were not fully repaired.

In the Atlantic, the Avenger's range, ability to carry large quantities and a large variety of ordinance combined with airborne radar sets did make it a uniquely capable aircraft. The Swordfish was likely the only plane that could be competitive with the Avenger in those categories, and the Avenger was by far a much more modern aircraft.

[JDK]

Can we just try 'British' not 'English', please? It's as crashing as assuming all Americans are Texans. Thanks.

Mr Tillman is very much an American, and with an American perspective - and a very good writer, too. IMHO.

In the Atlantic, the Avenger's range, ability to carry large quantities and a large variety of ordinance combined with airborne radar sets did make it a uniquely capable aircraft. The Swordfish was likely the only plane that could be competitive with the Avenger in those categories, and the Avenger was by far a much more modern aircraft.

The Swordfish was a ridiculously outdated aircraft, but it was, late in the war, the only anti-submarine aircraft capable of operating from Merchant Aircraft Carriers, and was equipped with ASV radar and anti submarine rockets as well as being depth charge capable.

A Fairey Swordfish Mk.III with ASV Mk.XI radar between its wheel legs, dipole arrays on its wings struts, and rocket launching rails under the wings.

With the development of new torpedo attack aircraft, the Swordfish was soon redeployed successfully in an anti-submarine role, armed with depth-charges or eight "60 lb" (27 kg) RP-3 rockets and flying from the smaller escort carriers or even Merchant Aircraft Carriers (MAC) when equipped for rocket-assisted takeoff (RATO). Its low stall speed and inherently tough design made it ideal for operation from the MAC carriers in the often severe mid Atlantic weather. Indeed, its takeoff and landing speeds were so low that it did not require the carrier to be steaming into the wind, unlike most carrier-based aircraft. On occasion, when the wind was right, Swordfish were flown from a carrier at anchor.[8]

Swordfish-equipped units accounted for 14 U-boats destroyed. The Swordfish was meant to be replaced by the Albacore, also a biplane, but actually outlived its intended successor. It was, finally, however, succeeded by the Fairey Barracuda monoplane torpedo bomber.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairey_Swo ... al_history

The Swordfish was now equipped with ASV radar and rocket projectiles for anti-submarine operations. The Swordfish Mk.II had wings with metal-skinned undersides and launching rails for eight 60lb rockets. The provision for a float undercarriage was deleted, and the more powerful Pegasus 30 engine installed. The Mk.III had ASV Mk.XI radar in a big radome between the landing gear legs. This radar had a range of about 40km against ships, and in good conditions also against U-boats; but it would detect a Schnorkel only in very calm seas and at distances below 8km. Some Mk.IIs and many Mk.IIIs became Mk.IVs when a cockpit canopy was installed.

Swordfishes operated from 14 escort carriers and 18 MAC (Merchant Aircraft Carrier) ships. MAC ships were converted oil tankers or grain ships, with a flight deck but minimal maintenance facilities, and the aircraft were continuously exposed to the often appalling weather. For operations from small flight decks with heavy loads, rocket-assisted take-offs were necessary.

In their anti-submarine role, the Swordfishes were very successful. They usually flew patrols at night, patrolling between 145km and 40km ahead of the convoy. Targets were located with radar, and investigated by dropping flares. In September 1944, Swordfishes from HMS Vindex sank four U-boats in one voyage. In total, Swordfishes claimed 22.5 U-boats.

http://uboat.net/allies/aircraft/swordfish.htm

(The discrepancy in U Boats sunk is probably mixing U Boats sunk by MAC /Escort carrier Swordfish, as against all Swordfish units.)

In other words, while the Avenger was, indeed, a more advanced aircraft; but in the Atlantic, Swordfish were there, doing the job when the Avenger wasn't able to be because it was too big and landed too fast.

Again, there's a trap here - 'better', i.e. of superior capability of performance may (rarely, but in this case) mean something is less fit for the purpose.

In answer to the original question, I think Mr Tillman's simply incorrect in ascribing a leading role to the Avenger in the keeping open the Atlantic supply lines. It played a greater role in the Battle of the Atlantic overall, but again, other types have greater claims to every type of action Avengers were involved in.

Also, IMHO (and I don't claim to be familiar with the Avenger's CV in detail) like most types, there are very few places you can say the type (as opposed to 'one of that nation's alternate aircraft') played a decisive role in battle - not that any of those points detract from the achievements and sacrifices of the Avenger crews, or of the capability of one of Grumman's finest.

Regards,

[The Inspector]

Sort of a 'shouldawouldacoulda' situation full of 'what if's?' What if the TBF/M wasn't available in sufficient quantitles for Lend-Lease? What if the BARRACUDA was a better airplane, if the SUPERMARINE 322 wasn't a total waste of plywood?(and so lacking in design sense) What would have happened if the FAIREY SPEARFISH had been developed a bit earlier and more quickly? (it did eventually morph into the GANNETT)
If PB4Y's had replaced B-24's, and on and on and back to B-29's over Germany.
I have a lot of respect for Barrett as well as Bob Dohr and several others as aviation authors and you can almost follow a direct line of information and research improvements by them over the years and as information that was kept out of sight by 'security restrictions' disappeared as the years passed and things that had to be guessed at from sketchy word of mouth from years past and taken as gospel, have been shown to be wrong as the real story creeps out from under it's cover.

[JDK]

Robert F Dorr?

I have a lot of respect for Barrett as well as Bob Dohr and several others as aviation authors and you can almost follow a direct line of information and research improvements by them over the years and as information that was kept out of sight by 'security restrictions' disappeared as the years passed and things that had to be guessed at from sketchy word of mouth from years past and taken as gospel, have been shown to be wrong as the real story creeps out from under it's cover.

Yes, and just as critical, how hard it is to kill a myth, and how much history's a lot more complex than the story that can be covered in one page of text / Hollywood script / exam question / Journalist's notebook, or...

Regards,

[k5083]

So I think James basically has the answer right on the narrow OT. The Atlantic ASW role was neither a major mission for the Avenger nor one in which the Avenger played a huge role, and Tillman should have known better even then. Perhaps he was exaggerating to draw attention to an application of the aircraft that is not much known, even now. Tillman could not, of course, at the time, known what we have since learned from countless airshow announcers, that by far the most noteworthy role of the Avenger was that one happened to be flown by a young fellow named Bush.

I disagree that this is a What-if-the-type-didn't-exist question. That would make it boring IMO. The clear eyed answer to every instance of the question "What would have been different if weapon make and model X hadn't been available?" is always "Probably nothing important." The airplane did what it did and it is interesting, for us buffs, to know how and where it was most effectively deployed. No need to romanticize it's contribution.

August

[groggie]

I don't know that I can add much to this discussion other than that my grandfather was part of the patrols in the Atlantic. Their job was U-Boat hunting specifically AFIK. I've seen better info on one of his specific missions but I can't seem to find it now, but here is what I did come up with:

19 Mar 1944
Aircraft attack, aircraft shot down: American Avenger (VC-6 USN, pilot Lt (jg) N.T. Dowty)

The sinking of U-1059At 07.26 hours, the boat was attacked by an Avenger/Wildcat team from USS Block Island operating on ULTRA reports southwest of the Cape Verde Islands. The aircraft completely suprised U-1059, as she was not underway and men were seen swimming in the water. While the Wildcat (Lt (jg) W.H. Cole) made a strafing run, the Avenger dropped three depth charges that straddled the boat perfectly. U-1059 began to sink, but the AA gunners scored hits on the Avenger during its second attack run and it crashed into the sea, killing the pilot and one crewman. The mortally wounded pilot had nevertheless dropped two depth charges that sent the boat to the bottom. Ensign M.E. Fitzgerald survived the aircraft crash and found himself on a dinghy amidst German survivors. He helped a wounded survivor but kept the others at a distance with his pistol until USS Corry arrived and rescued him and eight German survivors, including the badly wounded commander, Oblt Günther Leupold. (Sources: Franks/Zimmerman)

found here: http://uboat.net/boats/u1059.htm

Edit: Here is a little more info on LTJG Norman Dowty, the Avenger pilot that day:

Beginning in August, 1943, his squadron, VC-6, was ordered to combat duty in the Atlantic, providing an air arm for escort carriers Croatan, Core, and Block Island. On March 16, 1944, LTJGs C.A. Wooddell and his fighter escort Paul Sorenson were launched from Block Island to search for enemy submarines. They sighted U-801 about 10 miles away. Sorenson strafed the boat and Wooddell dropped two depth bombs which exploded 50 yards to starboard. The boat submerged and Wooddell dropped a MK-24 acoustic homing torpedo which missed. That night, Avengers piloted by LTJGs J. W. Steere, Powell, Conkling, and Elefter dropped sonobuoys which picked up submarine sounds and another MK-24 torpedo was dropped without result. Just after midnight, radio transmissions from U-801 were detected by Block Island's HFDF gear and the destroyer Corry and an Avenger piloted by Dowty were sent to investigate. Dowty and his longtime radioman, ARM1/c Edgar Burton, dropped sonobuoys throughout the night, often flying at 100 feet above the waves. At 0427, they spotted the feather of a periscope and dropped a MK-24 torpedo just as it submerged. The weapon exploded, violently shaking the boat and causing a crack 15-20 cms. long and 2 mm. wide in the pressure hull in the Diesel compartment. Dowty was unsure if they had damaged the boat, but at dawn they saw an oil slick originating where they had dropped the MK-24. Forced to return to the carrier due to lack of fuel, a jubilant Dowty radioed in the news. The destroyers Corry and Bronstein gained sonar contact and conducted eight depth charge attacks. At 1118 U-801 surfaced and was taken under fire by the destroyers. The crew abandoned ship and the boat sank at 1124. 47 crewmen were rescued.

Just two days later on the morning of March 19, south-west of the Cape Verde Islands, LTJG Dowty and his fighter escort LTJG William Cole sighted U-1059 fully surfaced about 10 miles away. Cole pushed over and conducted a strafing attack from the boat's port quarter. According to the testimony of the survivors, U-1059's gunners fired heavily on the attacking planes. Dowty followed Cole's attack dropping two Mark 47 depth bombs which exploded on either side of the conning tower. The explosions raised the submarine high in the water and it sank stern first within 20 seconds. Fifteen survivors were seen in the water, eight of whom were rescued.

Immediately after delivering the depth bomb attack, the TBF was seen to circle wheels down, then suddenly dip one wing and fall into the water. LTJG Norman Dowty and his radioman ARM1/c Edgar Burton were lost. Ensign Mark E. Fitzgerald, who was flying in the TBF as an observer, survived the crash.

Norman Dowty was awarded the Navy Cross for his "extraordinary heroism" and "brilliant airmanship" against U-1059. Fellow crewman Franklin Woodward, VC-6 historian, submitted this tribute : "LTJG Norman Dowty's death was a heavy blow to the squadron, for he was one of its best liked and oldest members. This officer and his radioman, ARM1/c Edgar Burton, had both done by far the outstanding work on the cruise, and it seemed ironically tragic that they both should die before realizing that they had been responsible for the squadron's most outstanding success in battle."

found here: http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-1059Dowty.htm

My grand dad was the Wildcat pilot, W.H. Cole. I will try to find more about his service this evening and their missions while hunting u-boats and see if I can add anything further.

By the way, and off topic a bit, I don't know a lot about my grandfather's service because he was pretty tight-lipped about it, so if anyone has more info, I'd love to hear it. Thanks.

Chris Grogg

[The Inspector]

Robert F Dorr?

I have a lot of respect for Barrett as well as Bob Dohr and several others as aviation authors and you can almost follow a direct line of information and research improvements by them over the years and as information that was kept out of sight by 'security restrictions' disappeared as the years passed and things that had to be guessed at from sketchy word of mouth from years past and taken as gospel, have been shown to be wrong as the real story creeps out from under it's cover.

Yes, and just as critical, how hard it is to kill a myth, and how much history's a lot more complex than the story that can be covered in one page of text / Hollywood script / exam question / Journalist's notebook, or...

Regards,

Errant index finger, I washed my hands and couldn't do a thing with my fingers, it was late, the Moon was in my eyes, a barking dog distracted me......... Basically, it's this crappola Microsquish wireless keyboard I'm using and it's sticking keys!