Burmese Spitfires back in the news...

[Jesse C.]

My posting was aimed at the "Reporting" aspect of this whole thing and how everyone within reporting range has done their own spin on this.

I do hope they find something. It would be nice to see something like the Focke Wulf that Paul Allen has. Found in decent shape and restored. But, even if they find chunks of stuff that was once an airplane, I hope is it more than junk so someone can use it and someone can get back some of their investment money.

These planes in a barn, hole, hangar, general store, garage or field stories are everywhere and for once I would like to see one come true.

So make of that what you will and I will express what I think in a reasonable manner. Gentleman!

[67Cougar]

Beyond the entertainment value of this thread, I've just got to wonder ... why is it that the discovery and potential recovery of a large number of very desirable warbirds (in any condition) causes so much sarcasm and sniping here?

We ought to be celebrating the potential of this find, not posturing about who has the most knowledge about it. I don't think anyone on this board has actually been to Burma and looked through the snake camera into one of the crates. Why can't everyone be thankful for the potential windfall to our hobby, and wait to see what actually comes out of the ground?

[51fixer]

Beyond the entertainment value of this thread, I've just got to wonder ... why is it that the discovery and potential recovery of a large number of very desirable warbirds (in any condition) causes so much sarcasm and sniping here?

We ought to be celebrating the potential of this find, not posturing about who has the most knowledge about it. I don't think anyone on this board has actually been to Burma and looked through the snake camera into one of the crates. Why can't everyone be thankful for the potential windfall to our hobby, and wait to see what actually comes out of the ground?

There is physics and earth science involved as well as I have never heard of that large of unaccounted for group of Spitfires based on production Serials.

I will be happy to be proven wrong and willing to purchase several of the Spare Griffon Engines that would have been buried as spare parts.

There is also the possibility of overselling the potential of what is there in order to secure sponsors and convince Gov people.

Time will tell.

[Russ Blow]

I was just joking because they keep saying these aircraft will be " pristine ". Now there is a part of me that wishes they were. And I do hope they are there and kudos to the gentleman for finding them and getting financially rewarded for same.

But I keep remembering the buried 58 Plymouth in Tulsa that had been " meticulously " prepped and buried in a special vault. When they opened it the vault was full of water and the car had basically rotted away though it was recognizable. I suspect they will find the same here.

Anyway if they are pristine and do flood the market I will try and scare up 200k for my airworthy copy once the prices plummet. I have a feeling I am in for a long wait.

Good luck to them.

[bdk]

Hey, BDK, you have to be a citizen to be President...just sayin

Some think that pushing the envelope is OK. At least James speaks English, sort of...

[muddyboots]

My BS detectors just popped out of my skull and started spinning in circles...

[WallyB]

Beyond the entertainment value of this thread, I've just got to wonder ... why is it that the discovery and potential recovery of a large number of very desirable warbirds (in any condition) causes so much sarcasm and sniping here?

Because we all want it to be true, but are afraid it isn't.

As someone once said/wrote:

Expect to be disappointed and you won't be.

(takes a while to work that one out ).

[Mark V]

Right now there is no direct evidence that there is a single Spitfire underground in Myanmar, in any condition.

That depends on what you mean by 'evidence'. If, over a period of several years, you were to interview half a dozen independent veterans, all of whome told you basically the same story about what they saw in Burma in 1945, without any contact with each other. If some of them had recall to the extent they were able to point on a map where they buried Spitfires in boxes in 1945 and you, acting on those accounts travelled to that location with ground penetrating radar equipment. If that equipments survey results, after scanning the area in question, revealed a buried orderley row of metalic objects, around four feet or so in width and twenty feet or so long.... would you then consider that evidence?

I believe the answer the that question is yes - not PROOF, but certainly compelling evidence.

[JDK]

Thanks for the compliments. I can indeed manage to comprehend much of what some Americans say, bdk, but I remain baffled as to any sensible content at times. As for entering some overseas political post? No thanks. Multiple problems with that.

More seriously, there's some misunderstanding of my point of a glut, as well as some excellent takes of the detail in that. In a simple case, a glut is where supply exceeds demand; which is debatable if it could occur in this case - however many more Spitfires could well reduce the individual value of all of them.

However the other way of categorising a glut is that the cost of work required exceeds the end value - these Spitfires will most likely cost more to conserve as stabilised wrecks that they may well be worth on an open market - and is generally more common an assumption, they'll cost the same as a current equivalent to rebuild as an airworthy example, but be less exclusive and have less cash value on the open market.

Given Spitfires are going to remain popular and acquirable, the glut will eventually smooth out; the good bit would be if there was an increase in employment and work for restoration shops rebuilding them.

I think reasonably jmkendall queried the 'fly 'em away' version:

I agree with the whole mocking thing. Enough already. NOBODY said they would just dig them up and fly them away, NO ONE.

Interestingly, on the ABC news webpage here this morning, we have a direct quote from Mr Cundall (requoted from Britain's Daily Telegraph, from 'earlier this year'). Now, even allowing for misquotation or misunderstanding, it's just overpitched, and simplistic:

"Spitfires are beautiful aeroplanes and should not be rotting away in a foreign land. They saved our neck in the Battle of Britain and they should be preserved.

"They were just buried there in transport crates. They were waxed, wrapped in greased paper and their joints tarred. They will be in near-perfect condition."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-18/h ... .svl=news3

There's obvious issues with confusing short-term protection for near future use above ground seventy years ago with long term preservation requirements.

What I also find interesting is the flat statement that 'they should be preserved'. Why? There are multiple Spitfires preserved in all the major national collections in the UK, USA, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, India, even Scotland. There is a steady (to slowly increasing) number of airworthy Spitfires, mostly privately owned, but notably a set of six belonging to the RAF which I defy anyone to suggest aren't doing the best job of demonstration and commemoration with these aircraft, of anybody, and that can be done. Their set also includes Mk.II P7350 which actually fought in the Battle of Britain. None of the Burma Spitfires are likely to be so obsolete when buried as to have had that kind of history.

(The BBMF's Spitfires: http://www.raf.mod.uk/bbmf/theaircraft/ ... istory.cfm )

Am I 'excited' by the potential? Certainly. It has the potential to be very interesting. But I've not checked my brain at the door, and there's a lot of other interesting aspects to the story - for instance that it is being oversold, for various reasons. Is it fulfilling a desperate need? No. Good luck to Mr Cundall, and bully for the UK and Burmese governments - I hope there is some real benefit to the people of Burma out of this. That would be worthwhile.

Regards,

[marine air]

Who Is David J. Cundall? What is his background? Does he have references? Has anyone done a background report and credit check? Who are his references? His net worth and does he have an estate? What is his real job?
Believe it or not, there have been a con artist or two in aviation over the years!

[JDK]

That's not an issue in this case.

[Noha307]

Spitfires are beautiful aeroplanes and should not be rotting away in a foreign land. They saved our neck in the Battle of Britain and they should be preserved.

Finally, someone with some sense!

Ironically though, this is one of, if not the case that I could most agree with returning a good deal of these aircraft to the air. With such a large number of a/c that have little service history, this is actually the perfect chance to restore many of them to flight. (This is all presuming that the story is for the most part true.)

Since, I've taunted everyone sufficiently with my beliefs, I'll add insult to injury by asking you to reserve the majority of your opinions on the subject - but only for a short while. It looks like the time has come for me to finally start my personally long-awaited thread about historical integrity. And I'll try to do it this weekend. I expect my opinion to be in the minority here, but I also hope for a lively (and well-intentioned) debate and to also get some more of my questions answered.

EDIT: Thread on Historical Integrity started here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=47509

Last edited by Noha307 on Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[JDK]

I look forward to that discussion!

I remain unconvinced that it's a 'sensible' view that these particular very-definitely non-Battle of Britain Spitfires should be preserved (or rather brought into preservation).

We aren't lacking for Spitfires preserved globally and in responsible hands, nor for flying examples. More would indeed be 'nice' but they aren't, say something we just don't have to show the reality of W.W.II combat - that would be, say, more Ju 87 Stukas in better preservation, and ideally, airworthy.

The project therefore IMHO does not pass the 'need' test.

Financially, it's likely that the recovery will cost more than it could nett; so it doesn't look likely it will pass a 'profit' test - though it may.

If they stopped now, they'd be ahead on publicity. You might call that the TIGHAR scenario.

That doesn't mean I'm saying it shouldn't proceed - good luck to them, and if it moves some money around for the people (not the leaders) of Burma, that's A Good Thing. And my opinion is of no import to any decisions.

Regards,

[Mike]

Hey, BDK, you have to be a citizen to be President...just sayin

It didn't work out that way for Arnie!

[Mark V]

Who Is David J. Cundall? What is his background? Does he have references?

David is a good friend of mine. As has been widely reported all over the world, his background is agriculture, he has a farm in N Lincolnshire - mainly turf crop in recent years. He has also created some innovatory argicultural machinery products over the years but his true passion is Spitfires and the recovery of lost aircraft - his enthusiasm is boundless and its only that fact that has kept the momentum of this project going year in and year out. He truly deserves to have it brought to a successful conclusion.