Re: Czech L-29 Down _ Dallas Area _UPDATE 12/13/12
Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:20 pm
You know Marine Air, I wonder how I made it thru 53 years of flying, (39 airline) without your expert airmanship in my cockpit to keep me alive.
There is not a pilot alive who hasn't made mistakes. If he is lucky, he will correct a mistake on his own or a good crew member will point it out.
What really galls me is how people like you can't wait to crucify an older pilot. I can't tell how much I learned from those senior pilots you condemn, things that I carried throughout my entire career.
If being younger must really make you good, how come my copilot wanted to make a right turn on a night departure leaving Butte, Montana to the North (don't worry about that 8500' mountain just off to the right) or the one who forgot to use the reversers on an MD-11 landing in Paris on the shorter runway or the one who was cleared for an approach in Juneau from 35,000 feet and didn't know how to do the transition from cruise or the one who wanted to shut down the wrong engine after takeoff or the F/E who didn't know how to add and we departed 12,000 # over gross for that runway? I could come up a hundreds of mistakes by pilots, both young and old, so don't get on your high horse and tell me older pilots are crap!
There is not a pilot alive who hasn't made mistakes. If he is lucky, he will correct a mistake on his own or a good crew member will point it out.
What really galls me is how people like you can't wait to crucify an older pilot. I can't tell how much I learned from those senior pilots you condemn, things that I carried throughout my entire career.
If being younger must really make you good, how come my copilot wanted to make a right turn on a night departure leaving Butte, Montana to the North (don't worry about that 8500' mountain just off to the right) or the one who forgot to use the reversers on an MD-11 landing in Paris on the shorter runway or the one who was cleared for an approach in Juneau from 35,000 feet and didn't know how to do the transition from cruise or the one who wanted to shut down the wrong engine after takeoff or the F/E who didn't know how to add and we departed 12,000 # over gross for that runway? I could come up a hundreds of mistakes by pilots, both young and old, so don't get on your high horse and tell me older pilots are crap!
Re: Czech L-29 Down _ Dallas Area _UPDATE 12/13/12
Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:34 am
My remark was over the top and fueled by too many blow hards that want to try to buffalo their way through their checkout, or whatever they have me flying with them for.
Last week, I had a "70 something" purchase a newer version of a retractable gear airplane , the type of which he has been flying for 35 years. Same engine, different prop and the aircraft is 200 lbs heavier. That's about it. He just wanted to go around the patch in the new aircraft get familiar with the slightly different gear handle, three bladed prop, and GPS. I agreed to go, even though it had a throwover yoke, because he said he was very current.
Well, he lost it on takeoff, at 65 knots, he jerks the yoke back, pitching it 45 plus degrees above the horizon then while maybe 100' agl violently back towards earth, totally out of control. I lunged at the yoke grabbing his yoke with my left hand on the right horn of the yoke, my chest against the center of the yoke and my right hand forward of my left armpit and on the manual trim. Cleaning it up and gaining a 1000' feet of altitude I gave it back to him and made him fly another hour. We reviewed what happended and practiced some landings at 3500' AGL.
We took the aircraft back to his home airport and worked until he was making smooth landings. I dont know how he got a medical, but he lied to us about his age. An inquiry revealed him to be 85 plus years old!
I also had an 81 year old that "flies every week" freeze on the controls on takeoff in the citabria and pull the aircraft into an accelerated stall. We missed hitting runway lights with our right wing by 2 feet as I had to overpower him and not crash.
When is a person too old to fly PIC, or to learn a new aircraft or add a new rating?
Last week, I had a "70 something" purchase a newer version of a retractable gear airplane , the type of which he has been flying for 35 years. Same engine, different prop and the aircraft is 200 lbs heavier. That's about it. He just wanted to go around the patch in the new aircraft get familiar with the slightly different gear handle, three bladed prop, and GPS. I agreed to go, even though it had a throwover yoke, because he said he was very current.
Well, he lost it on takeoff, at 65 knots, he jerks the yoke back, pitching it 45 plus degrees above the horizon then while maybe 100' agl violently back towards earth, totally out of control. I lunged at the yoke grabbing his yoke with my left hand on the right horn of the yoke, my chest against the center of the yoke and my right hand forward of my left armpit and on the manual trim. Cleaning it up and gaining a 1000' feet of altitude I gave it back to him and made him fly another hour. We reviewed what happended and practiced some landings at 3500' AGL.
We took the aircraft back to his home airport and worked until he was making smooth landings. I dont know how he got a medical, but he lied to us about his age. An inquiry revealed him to be 85 plus years old!
I also had an 81 year old that "flies every week" freeze on the controls on takeoff in the citabria and pull the aircraft into an accelerated stall. We missed hitting runway lights with our right wing by 2 feet as I had to overpower him and not crash.
When is a person too old to fly PIC, or to learn a new aircraft or add a new rating?
Re: Czech L-29 Down _ Dallas Area _UPDATE 12/13/12
Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:47 am
Those things just outlined could have just as easily happened with a 25 year old. Those behaviors were not a result of age but a result of judgment, training or proficiency (or lack thereof) IMHO.
Re: Czech L-29 Down _ Dallas Area _UPDATE 12/13/12
Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:14 pm
I don't know what caused this accident and we may never know. If it was a medical issue, then it's one of the hardest question in aviation to answer- "when is it time?" I know several older pilots (70+) whom are more than fit to still be flying. I've known others who weren't and didn't. But there's no hard-and-fast answer.
I think the problem right now for many is that an older pilot is much more likely to knowingly lie about their condition and how often they really fly than a young person because they know they can get away with it. But there's no good way to handle it either. There are just as many older pilots whom are more than smart enough to know when it's "time". My old boss at Air Tahoma always had someone fly with him because he knew he was getting too old. He could still maintain his medical and all, but his vision wasn't what it was, and he knew that there was always a "chance" something might happen. So whenever he made a trip somewhere in the company's Baron, someone went with him. I was lucky enough to be that person one day, but usually it was an off duty flight crew member or one of our two mechanics who were also pilots.
It's a bad analogy on one hand, but getting some people out of the cockpit is like getting an older person to hand over the keys to their car and give up driving. It's something they've grown used to and it's hard for many to admit that it's "time". Some are willing to lie to keep flying, but most aren't (thankfully). The only way to "fix" the problem is just make sure that everyone around them is being honest with them and helping to keep them honest. They'll know when it's "time" even if they won't admit it and only having good support around them will help them with that decision.
I think the problem right now for many is that an older pilot is much more likely to knowingly lie about their condition and how often they really fly than a young person because they know they can get away with it. But there's no good way to handle it either. There are just as many older pilots whom are more than smart enough to know when it's "time". My old boss at Air Tahoma always had someone fly with him because he knew he was getting too old. He could still maintain his medical and all, but his vision wasn't what it was, and he knew that there was always a "chance" something might happen. So whenever he made a trip somewhere in the company's Baron, someone went with him. I was lucky enough to be that person one day, but usually it was an off duty flight crew member or one of our two mechanics who were also pilots.
It's a bad analogy on one hand, but getting some people out of the cockpit is like getting an older person to hand over the keys to their car and give up driving. It's something they've grown used to and it's hard for many to admit that it's "time". Some are willing to lie to keep flying, but most aren't (thankfully). The only way to "fix" the problem is just make sure that everyone around them is being honest with them and helping to keep them honest. They'll know when it's "time" even if they won't admit it and only having good support around them will help them with that decision.
Re: Czech L-29 Down _ Dallas Area _UPDATE 12/13/12
Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:18 pm
Warbirdfinder, My comment wasn't aimed at retired airline types still flying after their mandatory airline retirement. There have been several changes in the trends. 50 years ago, only 35% of Air Force pilots were still on flying status at their 20 year mark. They would have been younger than age 50. Back then airlines had their own medical examiners and they were feared. Many pilots weren't able to fly to age 60. One of the reasons the age was extended to age 65 was the natural attrition rate would make it so there wouldnt be that many working at the highest levels anyway.
I've had a lot of calls this week about the Lear 25 in Mexico that crashed with a 78 year old captain. all aboard including singer Jenni Rivera were killed. Based on the dozens of senior citizens I've flown with in the last few years my feeling is this; If you want to fly at the ATP or Commercial level after age 65, great, you have to go to OKC to get your first or second class medical.
Just so you know, the same people that want to fly forever, never exercise, do anything to maintain their eye-hand-foot coordination, or stretching exercises. In some cases, they still drink and smoke like fiends and carry way too much weight. Many of them, (I was guilty of this) don't keep their eyeglass prescriptions up to date,either.
I've had a lot of calls this week about the Lear 25 in Mexico that crashed with a 78 year old captain. all aboard including singer Jenni Rivera were killed. Based on the dozens of senior citizens I've flown with in the last few years my feeling is this; If you want to fly at the ATP or Commercial level after age 65, great, you have to go to OKC to get your first or second class medical.
Just so you know, the same people that want to fly forever, never exercise, do anything to maintain their eye-hand-foot coordination, or stretching exercises. In some cases, they still drink and smoke like fiends and carry way too much weight. Many of them, (I was guilty of this) don't keep their eyeglass prescriptions up to date,either.
Re: Czech L-29 Down _ Dallas Area _UPDATE 12/13/12
Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:34 am
I'm old and grouchy 
If I'm giving you a rating ride, don't piss me off 
If I'm giving you a rating ride, don't piss me off
Re: Czech L-29 Down _ Dallas Area _UPDATE 12/13/12
Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:45 pm
marine air wrote: Just so you know, the same people that want to fly forever, never exercise, do anything to maintain their eye-hand-foot coordination, or stretching exercises. In some cases, they still drink and smoke like fiends and carry way too much weight. Many of them, (I was guilty of this) don't keep their eyeglass prescriptions up to date,either.
This is such a blatantly false statement which stereotypes by a broad brush a whole lot of people who are extremely qualified older pilots who are very conscientous about keeping their skills, proficiency and bodies in very good condition. I agree with "B29Driver"....he is old and grouchy and a d.a.m.n. good pilot !!!!!!
Re: Czech L-29 Down _ Dallas Area _UPDATE 12/13/12
Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:27 pm
LadyO2Pilot wrote:marine air wrote: Just so you know, the same people that want to fly forever, never exercise, do anything to maintain their eye-hand-foot coordination, or stretching exercises. In some cases, they still drink and smoke like fiends and carry way too much weight. Many of them, (I was guilty of this) don't keep their eyeglass prescriptions up to date,either.
This is such a blatantly false statement which stereotypes by a broad brush a whole lot of people who are extremely qualified older pilots who are very conscientous about keeping their skills, proficiency and bodies in very good condition. I agree with "B29Driver"....he is old and grouchy and a d.a.m.n. good pilot !!!!!!
I'd second that.
Ryan
Re: Czech L-29 Down _ Dallas Area _UPDATE 12/13/12
Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:01 pm
Airline types are awesome pilots most of the time. I have had more than my share of "over the hill" non professional types who are trying to get back into aviation or transition to complex or tailwheel very late in life. They want the easy way but don't pick the easy airplanes.
A 68 year old called me last year to check him out in his almost new Maule MX-7-180C with all the bells and whistles, beautiful aircraft. He said his insurance company required no minimum amount of time because he had received a checkout at the Maule factory. The checkout he described sounded like the 20 minutes of thrills and zooms Ray Maule flies to blow your mind, and hopefully buy hid airplane.
After disagreeing vehemently with the guy that he had received a demonstration not a check out, I finally agreed to do it his way. the long range tanks had been filled, making it more difficult to fly, but I said "Okay, just do a takeoff like you were taught at Moultrie."
Sure enough he cobbs the power and we go careening towards the left side of the runway and heading toward the drainage ditch. Way above flying speed, at the last possible second, (my hands and feet on the controls) I flick my wrist, tap the right rudder and we explode into the air at 1,500 plus fpm. Then I gave him back the controls and said "THAT WASN'T IT."
A 68 year old called me last year to check him out in his almost new Maule MX-7-180C with all the bells and whistles, beautiful aircraft. He said his insurance company required no minimum amount of time because he had received a checkout at the Maule factory. The checkout he described sounded like the 20 minutes of thrills and zooms Ray Maule flies to blow your mind, and hopefully buy hid airplane.
After disagreeing vehemently with the guy that he had received a demonstration not a check out, I finally agreed to do it his way. the long range tanks had been filled, making it more difficult to fly, but I said "Okay, just do a takeoff like you were taught at Moultrie."
Sure enough he cobbs the power and we go careening towards the left side of the runway and heading toward the drainage ditch. Way above flying speed, at the last possible second, (my hands and feet on the controls) I flick my wrist, tap the right rudder and we explode into the air at 1,500 plus fpm. Then I gave him back the controls and said "THAT WASN'T IT."
Re: Czech L-29 Down _ Dallas Area _UPDATE 12/13/12
Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:03 pm
marine air wrote:Airline types are awesome pilots most of the time. I have had more than my share of "over the hill" non professional types who are trying to get back into aviation or transition to complex or tailwheel very late in life. They want the easy way but don't pick the easy airplanes.
A 68 year old called me last year to check him out in his almost new Maule MX-7-180C with all the bells and whistles, beautiful aircraft. He said his insurance company required no minimum amount of time because he had received a checkout at the Maule factory. The checkout he described sounded like the 20 minutes of thrills and zooms Ray Maule flies to blow your mind, and hopefully buy hid airplane.
After disagreeing vehemently with the guy that he had received a demonstration not a check out, I finally agreed to do it his way. the long range tanks had been filled, making it more difficult to fly, but I said "Okay, just do a takeoff like you were taught at Moultrie."
Sure enough he cobbs the power and we go careening towards the left side of the runway and heading toward the drainage ditch. Way above flying speed, at the last possible second, (my hands and feet on the controls) I flick my wrist, tap the right rudder and we explode into the air at 1,500 plus fpm. Then I gave him back the controls and said "THAT WASN'T IT."
Same thing happens with younger pilots Marine Air. Sure, older pilots do it, but I'd say that anyone and everyone can have that problem... And we're getting way off topic. The pilot in question here was a VERY capable pilot by all accounts, and this is surprising.
Ryan
Re: Czech L-29 Down _ Dallas Area _UPDATE 12/13/12
Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:35 am
RyanShort1 wrote:Same thing happens with younger pilots Marine Air. Sure, older pilots do it, but I'd say that anyone and everyone can have that problem... And we're getting way off topic. The pilot in question here was a VERY capable pilot by all accounts, and this is surprising.
Ryan
Exactly. What Marine Air described has nothing to do with age - it has to do with ego and money. Only reason you probably see more older pilots displaying that attitude is because there are more older folks with the discretionary income to spend on expensive airplanes.