Warbird Information Exchange

Sitting here in Bishkek, Kyrgyzstan ; waiting for my plane to be deiced, with nothing else to do, I came up with a couple of questions about the CAF that they have never answered when I've asked in the past. I'm not complaining, just wondering out loud. No I'm not a member, but I am considering it after many years of swearing I'd never join.

What happened with the R4B Hoverfly project? Last I heard, it was in Ohio and they were having trouble finding an engine.

What happened with the CG4A glider project? I know at one time the plan was to fly it. Ken Livingston was working on the cargo floor and other assorted parts down towards Harlingen. Last I heard, they were looking for space to rebuild the wings.

Why has the ME-108 been under restoration for so long?

When and why did they start aquiring Post WWII planes? Just off the top of my head, I can think of the AN-2, Mig-17, T-33, C-131, L-17, T-28 and Chipmunk. I figure some of them must have been donated by people, but why are they not sold (legal reasons aside) since they don't fit into the WWII category?


edited because I'm actually in Kyrgyzstan. All these places look like asscrackastan to me....

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Brad

Hi Brad,

I can help you with one point and speculate on another.

We voted this fall to change the CAF by-laws opening them up to include post WWII aircraft. As I recall the mission statement was changed a wee bit as well. I think this was a wise move for many reasons. Hopefully we will soon see many post World War Two combat aircraft in the skies being operated by CAF units honoring Vets from other wars. This may also help recruit new members who previously had no interest because WWII was not their war or they simply had no interest in piston powered aircraft.

If the 108 project is anything like most of the other restoration projects out there, it is without question financially challenged. Soft financial support of restoration projects really tends to protract the period required to complete otherwise relatively quick jobs.

To join or not to join. Obviously it is a choice you have to make yourself but here is my story, sorry for the bloviation! For many years I worked with and helped the Minnesota Wing on projects, airshows and AC maintenance and was quite comfortable just being "A friend of the wing". Two years ago when Don Hinz offered me the CC position on the Red Tail Mustang I decided to pony up out of a sense of obligation. How would it look, I thought, if the crew chief on a CAF airplane was not a paid member? For a year I questioned why I decided to pay to do the same thing I had done through the years at no cost to me. At the end of the first year I drew a lucky card and was given a seat on the B-25 to the Midland show. That trip alone was worth the price of joining, no mistake about it! Admittedly my first Midland experience was not filled with time well spent and the weather was lousy. When I got home I was happy I went but still did not feel a real pressing urge to re-up my membership. I knew I would still be able to work on the C model even if I was not a member of the organization. I decided to pay my dues for another year. After a long year of working on the restoration of the C model, I was again given a seat on the B-25 to Midland this last year. This time, instead of spending most of my free time looking at the bottom of a beer glass, I was determined to see what I had missed the previous year. I spent a full day looking through the museum, the memorial gardens, snooping around the entire complex and talking to people. The most important things I saw that convinced me I was doing the right thing by paying membership dues was the museum and memorial gardens. A person can skim though them and say, "Yes it's nice...OK let’s go now" but if you can switch your focus from “just the airplanes” for a few hours, it is as moving experience the likes of which can be found at AFM and memorial gardens in Dayton or any of the other large publicly funded museums. The museum and gardens honor our veterans and CAF members making it a lesson in both US history and CAF history. I still think about what I saw in the museum complex and gardens that day and for the life of me I can’t remember with detail any particular “Cool” flying or show passes….go figure…that coming from me? I hope you do decide to join the CAF (Commemorative) Air Force. Sure, just like any other organization, it does have its share of problems but if you stay focused on the end goal and push the chaff aside, there are a lot of worthwhile things going on that merit everybody’s attention. Who knows, you might even be the guy that has the knowledge to fix some of the problems the CAF has!

John

Brad,

I can't answer all of your questions, but I can help answer the last one. I am sure there are other people on this forum that are much more knowledgeable than me on the specific airplanes you mentioned. I hope they post because you have piqued my curiosity as well.

I am a long time member of the CAF and affiliated with the National Capitol Squadron here in Virginia. However, the following are my thoughts and not necessarily the thoughts of General Staff or anyone else in the CAF.

The reason the CAF has been adding post WWII aircraft is the desire to try and reach out to as many people as possible. As you know, we lose hundreds if not thousands of WWII vets everyday. Because of this, our membership is aging and it is getting harder and harder to attract young people to the organization. A decision was made recently to expand the CAFs mission past WWII to more modern day aircraft. At the end of the day, our duty is to keep the airplanes we have viable for as long as possible. In that regard, the organization has adapted recently to try an accomplish those goals.

I am encouraged by these latest developments and feel confident that the CAF will continue to grow and thrive or I would not put my blood (yes real blood at times), sweat (lots of it) and money(the wife hates this part) into it. Every time we get to take a veteran up in our BT-13 or L-5 it makes everything worth it. Each time a little kid walks up and wants to know about our airplanes it makes me smile. I can speak only for our Squadron but the camaraderie between us is something I cherish as well.

Hope this helps with some of the info you were requesting.

Mike Hogan
Executive Officer
NCS/CAF

I can speak for one plane on the list. The CAF picked up the T-28A (N70743)from a guy in TX (Austin, if I remember right) around 1997 or so, its currently in the Hawkeye Squadron, i think. He bought that bird from my father in 1993 and then decided to put a bunch of IFR avionics in it, which he couldn't recover cost from when he decided to sell it. It sat on the market for a while and then he gave up and donated it to the CAF.
Jason
PS- that was a great A model too! It could outrun any other A model around even with the unsightly 'high profile' canopy b/c of its long prop.

Brad,
being the politically correct kinda guy you are shouldn't these inquiries be directed to the "Commenorative Air Force"?????
fly right
Gary

Brad,

Any idea where in Ohio? I know the Dayton Wing is working on a Cessna Crane, the Cleveland Wing flys an SNJ, and the Columbus wing flies an L-5. That is all the Ohio CAF I know about.

I swear I once heard the Hoverfly was in El Paso, but it appears there is no El Paso wing.

Jim

Brad:
I should know, but don't, about the helio and the glider. I shall find out. Re: the ME 108...it was restored and flew several flights before a low oil pressure indication led to an emergency landing that did some damage. I believe it is being fixed and the airplane should be flying again in the Spring.
Re: the post WW II airplanes....you are correct in speculating that they have been donated. Hard to turn down although each has presented difficulties...the MiG for example needs significant work. There has been a change in the goals of the CAF to be inclusive of all military aviation in hopes of reaching a new generation of members who more readily identify with "newer" old airplanes. Whether this will work is an open question, but the intent is to build a stronger organization.

I wish you would join, and I'd like to know why you swore you never would...Like many things the CAF is changing to meet new challenges, and is no longer the good ole boys flyin' club. John Beyl did a very good job of explaining that the CAF is larger and more important than just the airplanes...and Mike Hogan was equally convincing. I've been a member for twenty-five years, not because I got to fly all the neat airplanes or was part of any perceived network of the "higher ranking colonels," but because I believe in the mission of the CAF in the largest possible context. To me every day at the CAF is like Memorial Day, and I continue as a member so that our seemingly trite phrase "Lest we forget" continues to guide us.

$160 is a cheap price to me.

Bill Coombes
General Staff

Brad:

First off, THANK YOU for your service.

I will echo Bill and Mike and John's eloquent words, and hope that I can say my opinions and feelings as well as they did.

I'm also affiliated with National Capitol Squadron (Hi Mike!). To join? For me, it was an easy decision. First and foremost, to me, it's a tangible way of saying thanks to the men and women who served and fought, to preserve the freedoms I enjoy today. Secondly, being involved with the airplanes has really added so much to my life (not that it was empty before!). As Mike said, when a kid or a older gentleman comes up to me at an airshow and talks about the BT-13 or the L-5 or a T-6, well, that is an experience without price to me... Lastly, being able to work on, and fly these great old "grand dames of the sky" is such a rare privilege and honour... If not *now*, then when? They may not fly forever, but while they do fly, I will be involved.

As Bill Coombes, Doug Rozendaal and others can attest to, I am not a shy person. You can also search for other posts here to show that I am not afraid to stand and be counted when I think a mistake has been made. I traveled to the Nov General Staff meeting in Midland to make comments on a situation that I believed detrimental to the CAF's reputation. Bill's right in that the CAF is (mostly) no longer the "Good Ole Boy's Flying Club".. We do still have progress to make though, and to keep the organization growing and thriving, it will take people like you Brad!!

BTW, I seem to skew towards the younger side of the CAF at 33. I plan on being involved with the CAF and NCS for a looong time to come.

Like Mike said, the fellowship, cameraderie and friendship within our Unit is one of the other great gifts in my life. I am proud to call ALL of the folks in NCS my friends, and I *like* all of em, too! It's awful hard to bake your brains out on a hot airshow ramp, weekend after weekend, and not grow to deeply like those who are right there with you!

I hope you do join, Brad. Even with the areas the CAF should improve on, it's still the greatest experience in the world.

Regards

Jason Pence
Asst Mx Officer NCS
Caf Col

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Regards,

Jase
www.b26marauder.com
"I'm having a BLAST!!" 2007 CAF Wing Staff Conference

RIP Gary Austin..always in our hearts

I too have the CAF magazine they used to sell at shows that talks about getting the CG-4A back in the air. Even as a kid, I thought it was a bad idea. I’m not familiar with the actual project at all, but the question came up at an air show in Florida years ago. We were talking with an FAA inspector, talking about home built aircraft, when someone asked if the FAA would even certify a WW2 combat glider for an experimental rating. The FAA guys laughed until he cried, then said that there would be no chance in heck that the FAA would ever allow a combat glider to take to air again for any reasons other than disassembled inside another airplane as cargo. Considering the questionable airworthiness of combat gliders when they were new and not loaded down, I can honestly say I have no problem with never seeing another one in the air. I would worry too much about the poor schmuck at the controls to enjoy seeing it flying!

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Life member, 91st BG Memorial Association
Owner, 1944 Willys MB #366014
Former REMF (US Army, O3)

C-131 was donated with the stipulation that it remain in Camarillo and be kept airworthy.

p51, Why are combat gliders of "questionable airworthiness"? My understanding was that they flew just fine if you didn't crash them into a hedge or a tree on landing.

Now that I'm back in Germany, I have a little time to reply. I appreciate the answers to my question of why the CAF now includes aircraft other than WWII. Their reasons make good sense.

Bill, I will be thankful if you are able to find out the story behind the glider and R4B. I'll send you a PM about why I said I'd never join the CAF. I figure it's dirty laundry that doesn't need to be aired here. I was born and raised 90 miles east of Midland. When the CAF moved there, I was looking forward to being more involved. It was certainly closer than driving down to Harlingen. The move happened about the same time I left for the Air Force. A few years later, I was flying on Herks out of Abilene and intended to become more involved. But women, rodeo, skydiving at Stanton and flying for the Air Force got in the way most of the time. Between 1976 and 2000 I only missed three CAF airshows. Since then, various wars and more airshows than leave days have kept me away

In my original post, I was pretty clear that I wasn't complaining about the CAF. Now Rob has come along and muddied up the water with his two cents worth. Since you brought it up, Rob, I hope you'll list the planes that were scrapped befor the move from Harlingen. The only one I know of was the C-54 and a good deal of it made it into the museum in Midland.

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Brad

Since Rob brought it up , how about the airworthy Mosquito that rotted away behind the hangar at Harlingen ? Eventually the only thing left was the engines and the canopy I've seen hanging from the rafters at Midland .

...so they didn't fly well unloaded? Did they have to be weighted down for pilot training to simulate how they handled under combat conditions?

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All right, Mister Dorfmann, start pullin'!
Pilot: "Flap switch works hard in down position."
Mechanic: "Flap switch checked OK. Pilot needs more P.T." - Flight report, TB-17G 42-102875 (Hobbs AAF)

Like the C-54. I had a short story about it being scrapped in Pacific Flyer and Flypast and the letters afterwards were very interesting to read.

John

Brad:
I did find out the story behind the CG4 glider and the R4B helio. Both, at some point prior to my heavy involvement with the CAF, were deemed by the powers that be at the time (the General Staff) to be difficult to impossible to restore to flying condition. The helio used an odd-ball Warner engine that was no longer available (or repairable), and the glider was actually parts and pieces of three or four, with the fuse center section about the only thing recognizable. Hence those two machines were given to the museum side of the CAF (there are actually 4 different corporate entities that make up the CAF...long story about why...). The helio is in museum storage and will eventually become an exhibit. Some parts of the glider were incorporated into a D-Day exhibit here, other parts were sold/loaned/swapped (I'm not sure which) to the Silent Wings museum in Lubbock, and some pieces are in outside storage at HQ.
Re: the airplanes in Harlingen that the CAF "allowed" to be scrapped...actually, I believe those airframes belonged to the Air Force and the city of Harlingen and the AF had final say over them. With the exception of a PBY (not located in Harlingen), everything that could be moved from Harlingen to Midland was moved. (I worked with the guy who oversaw the move; he's my source)...Re: the Mossie bits and pieces...I don't believe the CAF ever owned outright a Mossie, just like the CAF never "owned" the six P-47s that came out of So. America. Lots of rather interesting transactions happened in the old days at Harlingen, and things are a bit hard to trace, but I've got access to all of the logs, etc, of all the airplanes that were officially in the fleet...Not saying those are definitive sources, but one would think they were.
Hope this answered some questions....
Bill Coombes
General Staff